Laocoönen

Lavreg
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 00:35
Real name: Gerrit van Mastrigt

Laocoönen

Post by Lavreg » Wed Jan 04, 2012 21:16

Het is wat rustig op het forum, dus hier even wat anders:

Lacoönen stand
Eens in de zoveel jaar weer wordt ik aangestoken door het Lacoöönen-virus. En elke keer is het weer H. van Meggelen met dat fascinerende ding uit de 60-tiger jaren (Ik werk uit wat summiere aantekeningen van 20 jaar geleden, dus op publicatiedata moet je me niet vastleggen) die het vuurtje opstookt..

Image

Het leuke is namelijk dat het geen “echte” Lacoönen-stand is. In de echte mogen de zwarte stukken geen van allen gehinderd worden door eigen stukken (Of heb ik mezelf die restricties opgelegd?).
Ik weet niet wanneer de infectie is begonnen , maar deze staan in mijn kladblokje:

H. van Deinse 1926 (nooit van gehoord!)
Image
350,449,327,316,6,428,61 (238)6 W+

B. Kramer 1960
Image
349,272,4,31,350,316 W+ Aanval van 26, heel origineel!

H. Wilsens 1981 De mooiste!
Image
461,327,371,449,8,3 W+

A. Kuyken 1991
Image
339,317,128,438,83 W+

J. Metz 1948
Image
472,194,293,3,350,25 en nu .. geen echte, maar wel een mooie

Is er ooit een Publicatie (onderzoek) geweest naar de mogelijkheden? Het maakt mij nieuwsgierig ..
If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite.
William Blake

ildjarn
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 15:38
Real name: Joost de Heer

Re: Lacoonen

Post by ildjarn » Wed Jan 04, 2012 21:28

Laocoönen
Lasst die Maschinen verhungern, Ihr Narren...
Lasst sie verrecken!
Schlagt sie tot -- die Maschinen!

Eric van Dusseldorp
Posts: 4245
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 22:11

Re: Lacoonen

Post by Eric van Dusseldorp » Wed Jan 04, 2012 21:32

Lavreg wrote:Het is wat rustig op het forum, dus hier even wat anders:

Lacoönen stand
Eens in de zoveel jaar weer wordt ik aangestoken door het Lacoöönen-virus. En elke keer is het weer H. van Meggelen met dat fascinerende ding uit de 60-tiger jaren (Ik werk uit wat summiere aantekeningen van 20 jaar geleden, dus op publicatiedata moet je me niet vastleggen) die het vuurtje opstookt..

Image

Het leuke is namelijk dat het geen “echte” Lacoönen-stand is. In de echte mogen de zwarte stukken geen van allen gehinderd worden door eigen stukken (Of heb ik mezelf die restricties opgelegd?).
Ik weet niet wanneer de infectie is begonnen , maar deze staan in mijn kladblokje:

H. van Deinse 1926 (nooit van gehoord!)
Image
350,449,327,316,6,428,61 (238)6 W+

B. Kramer 1960
Image
349,272,4,31,350,316 W+ Aanval van 26, heel origineel!

H. Wilsens 1981 De mooiste!
Image
461,327,371,449,8,3 W+

A. Kuyken 1991
Image
339,317,128,438,83 W+

J. Metz 1948
Image
472,194,293,3,350,25 en nu .. geen echte, maar wel een mooie

Is er ooit een Publicatie (onderzoek) geweest naar de mogelijkheden? Het maakt mij nieuwsgierig ..
Die van Andreas Kuijken vind ik veruit de mooiste.
http://www.ericsdamsite.com
http://www.thailandopen.nl
http://dammen.startpagina.nl

rusms
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 08:58
Location: USA, Columbus, OH

Re: Lacoonen

Post by rusms » Fri Jan 06, 2012 00:24

PWCP-IV, category "A"

A. Moiseyev
Image
23.38.19.13.8.2+.

I have another 24 published and 5 unpublished (myself) Laokoons in my collection.

If you want to see more published known Laokoons - let me know.

Respectfully,

Alex Moiseyev
There is always something around the corner in the game of Draughts !

groenteboer
Posts: 967
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Real name: Michel Stempher
Location: Kampen
Contact:

Re: Lacoonen

Post by groenteboer » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:52

Wat is eigenlijk het verschil tussen een laocoon en een Coup des Contraires? Voor mijn gevoel zijn dit namelijk 'gewoon' Coup des Contraires. (als meervoud bedoeld)

Lavreg
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 00:35
Real name: Gerrit van Mastrigt

Re: Lacoonen

Post by Lavreg » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:31

groenteboer wrote:Wat is eigenlijk het verschil tussen een laocoon en een Coup des Contraires? Voor mijn gevoel zijn dit namelijk 'gewoon' Coup des Contraires. (als meervoud bedoeld)
Ja Groenteboer, dat is een van de vragen die ik mezelf ook stelde. Ik denk dat er ooit in het verleden wel zinnige dingen over gezegd zijn, ik weet het niet. Als voorbeeld de volgende stand:

Scheijen ADG'er nov 1963
Image

01.25-20 19*30 02. 39-34 30*37 03.27-22 15*33 04.22*2

Image

Leuk ding, maar ik denk coup contraires.

Wie weet er meer van of denkt er meer van te weten?
If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite.
William Blake

Lavreg
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 00:35
Real name: Gerrit van Mastrigt

Re: Lacoonen

Post by Lavreg » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:41

rusms wrote:PWCP-IV, category "A"

A. Moiseyev
Image
23.38.19.13.8.2+.

I have another 24 published and 5 unpublished (myself) Laokoons in my collection.

If you want to see more published known Laokoons - let me know.

Respectfully,

Alex Moiseyev
Hello Alex

Great, this is what I was looking for.
I know your name from several other publications of small problems with every time a special moment.
I am surely looking forward to the other published Lacoons. If you are willing, you can post them on the forum or you can send them to me PM and when I have collect enough material I can make an artical of it in the Problemist or on the Forum.

Thank you
If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite.
William Blake

Arjen
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:22

Re: Lacoonen

Post by Arjen » Fri Jan 06, 2012 14:53

Image
A.Nikolaev / KvUSSR 1986 / 11x11
37,31,30,8,33,2+

Een Laocoön met 8 zwarte schijven!
Ik tel minstens drie scherpe varianten.

Arjen
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:22

Re: Lacoonen

Post by Arjen » Fri Jan 06, 2012 14:59

Image
A.Nikolaev / De Problemist 1992 / 11x11
29,10,41,39,8,27,20,30,3+

Het is blijkbaar de specialiteit van Nikolaev...

rusms
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 08:58
Location: USA, Columbus, OH

Re: Lacoonen

Post by rusms » Fri Jan 06, 2012 16:15

Lavreg wrote:Hello Alex

Great, this is what I was looking for.
I know your name from several other publications of small problems with every time a special moment.
I am surely looking forward to the other published Lacoons. If you are willing, you can post them on the forum or you can send them to me PM and when I have collect enough material I can make an artical of it in the Problemist or on the Forum.

Thank you
Hello, Mr. Lavreg (not sure it's you real name)

WOW ... this is great topic indeed ! I am very glad my long time friend Eddie van de Acker gave me link here. In the past 24 hours I extended my collection by almost 15%-20% ! I am giving you here some portion of my collection. I will post more later. Hope you like them and enjoy. I selected different authors, different motives and best positions in my eyes which meet my personal requirements and expectations.

Respectfully,

Alex Moiseyev

==============================================================

#1. A. van der Stoep
Image
22.20.9.44.3+.

#2. D. van den Berg
Image
27.239.10.5.32+.

A. Moiseyev
Image
41.28.9.23.27.4+.

#3. A. Kuyken
Image
349.9.450.44.4+.

#4. S. Weyeneth
Image
17.6.28.37.1.42.34+.

#5. A. Moiseyev
Image
117.14.8.23.33.2+.

#6. C. Koomen
Image
340.33.30.24.43.5+.

#7. A. Katiuha
Image
349.417.6.38.1+.

#8. A. Nikolaev
Image
42.28.17.21.31.45.3+.
There is always something around the corner in the game of Draughts !

Lavreg
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 00:35
Real name: Gerrit van Mastrigt

Re: Lacoonen

Post by Lavreg » Fri Jan 06, 2012 18:56

Hello, Mr. Lavreg (not sure it's you real name)

WOW ... this is great topic indeed ! I am very glad my long time friend Eddie van de Acker gave me link here. In the past 24 hours I extended my collection by almost 15%-20% ! I am giving you here some portion of my collection. I will post more later. Hope you like them and enjoy. I selected different authors, different motives and best positions in my eyes which meet my personal requirements and expectations.

Respectfully,

Alex Moiseyev

Hello Alex

I am glad you like the topic also. I think a lot of people are interested in this part of the problem-game. I expect a lot more contributions from other members and readers. I am still interested in all positions but special the real "Lacoӧnen" with total freedom of all black moves without blocking them with other black pieces. For instance the next one (not a Lacoӧnen) but I allways liked the starting position:

H. Wilsens 1981
Image

Regards Gerrit
If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite.
William Blake

rusms
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 08:58
Location: USA, Columbus, OH

Re: Lacoonen

Post by rusms » Fri Jan 06, 2012 20:20

Hi, Gerrit !
I expect a lot more contributions from other members and readers.
You are great optimist!
I am still interested in all positions but special the real "Lacoӧnen" with total freedom of all black moves without blocking them with other black pieces.
We are on the same page and I also like more positions with "freedom" of black moves. However, I suspect technically positions with "blocking pieces" also belong to Laocoon family. I might be wrong with this and this is not critical indeed - just terminology issue.
For instance the next one (not a Lacoӧnen) but I allways liked the starting position:
Beautifu, thanks for sharing !

In your opinion - what is the "minimum" number of black pieces should participate in Laocoon motive - 5, 6 ... more or less ?

Here is one more myself position. It's never participated in any Concourse in the past, but it was published in Internet couple years ago.

A. Moiseyev
Image
20(25)30.38.8.2+.

What I also like in Laoccon motives and evaluate them based on this element - number of "clear variations / finals".
There is always something around the corner in the game of Draughts !

User avatar
composite
Posts: 730
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 01:21

Re: Lacoonen

Post by composite » Sat Jan 07, 2012 00:03

groenteboer wrote:Wat is eigenlijk het verschil tussen een laocoon en een Coup des Contraires? Voor mijn gevoel zijn dit namelijk 'gewoon' Coup des Contraires. (als meervoud bedoeld)
In een CdC valt wit de zwarte stukken langs twee kanten aan (voorbeeld: zw. op 14, 17, 38, wit dam op 3), in een Laocoon maar via een kant.
... And I'll bury my soul in a scrapbook...
Leonard Cohen

rusms
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 08:58
Location: USA, Columbus, OH

Re: Lacoonen

Post by rusms » Sat Jan 07, 2012 02:19

Few more.

#9. F. Laurent
Image
18.1.19.45.50+.

#10. A. Kuyken
Image
34.28.31.3+.

#11. A. Moiseyev, 2012
Image
44.21.8.29.3+.
There is always something around the corner in the game of Draughts !

Lavreg
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 00:35
Real name: Gerrit van Mastrigt

Re: Lacoonen

Post by Lavreg » Sat Jan 07, 2012 14:05

rusms wrote:Hi, Gerrit !
I expect a lot more contributions from other members and readers.
You are great optimist!
I am still interested in all positions but special the real "Lacoӧnen" with total freedom of all black moves without blocking them with other black pieces.
We are on the same page and I also like more positions with "freedom" of black moves. However, I suspect technically positions with "blocking pieces" also belong to Laocoon family. I might be wrong with this and this is not critical indeed - just terminology issue.
For instance the next one (not a Lacoӧnen) but I allways liked the starting position:
Beautifu, thanks for sharing !

In your opinion - what is the "minimum" number of black pieces should participate in Laocoon motive - 5, 6 ... more or less ?

Here is one more myself position. It's never participated in any Concourse in the past, but it was published in Internet couple years ago.

A. Moiseyev
Image
20(25)30.38.8.2+.

What I also like in Laoccon motives and evaluate them based on this element - number of "clear variations / finals".
Hello Alex

I think the minimum of pieces must be 6. So we can exclude the ones below. The are nice but it is not what I was/am looking for.

Image D. Vuurboom, 1946 Image H.J. van Alphen 1945 ImageH.Bloemsma, 1972

There is one other issue. We must be carefull about the dates of publishing. When I have a date I will mention it but in the past I just wrote them down without any details. Maybe some other readers can help us out with this.

It is a fact there is a limit in constructions for the real Lacoӧnen but I think there are still positions to discover.
The difficulty of making new ones is now already proved by the following:


Image A.Katiuha, 1990? Image H. van Deinse, 1926

They both end in:

Image

I will be back on the issue of the definition of Lacoöns mentioned by Composite.

Regards
Last edited by Lavreg on Sat Jan 07, 2012 17:29, edited 1 time in total.
If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite.
William Blake

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