Killer draughts

General discussion about draughts and draughts community
MLWi
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Real name: Mats Winther

Killer draughts

Post by MLWi » Thu Apr 23, 2015 15:41

Killer draughts is a variant of International Draughts. The only difference is the following: if the last captured piece is a Dame, the captor must stop at the immediate next cell after the last jumped piece. This serves to reduce the drawishness of the game, since it means that two Dames will win against a lone Dame.

I have implemented the game as a Zillions program here:
http://www.two-paths.com/bg/killerdraughts.htm
(http://mlwi.magix.net/bg/killerdraughts.htm)

Mats Winther

MLWi
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Real name: Mats Winther

Re: Killer draughts

Post by MLWi » Sat Apr 25, 2015 08:54

My Killer draughts turned out to be faulty (the rules weren't correctly implemented). I have rewritten the code. If you have downloaded it, you need to download it anew: Killer draughts

I also plan to implement this new Dame capture rule for various 8x8 variants, such as Pool checkers. They would also benefit from this rule, I think.
/Mats

MLWi
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Real name: Mats Winther

Re: Killer draughts

Post by MLWi » Mon Apr 27, 2015 19:54

I have now implemented variants of Russian checkers, Pool checkers, etc. There is only a minor difference: the Dame must stop on the first vacant square after the last captured piece, if and only if that piece is also a Dame. Thus, two Dames always win against one. This serves to reduce drawishness. I think it is a significant improvement.
http://mlwi.magix.net/bg/checkersvariants.htm

M. Winther

Juri
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Real name: Anikeev Juri

Re: Killer draughts

Post by Juri » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:59

I see the some advantages and disadvantages of this variant.

advantages:
-save most of combiantions and positional ideas from normal rules
- 2 against 1 - is winning

minuses:
- end-games become not so complicated, because the small advantage enough for win. All is decided in second middle-game
- the active, central strategy become dominanting. Because if you not succeed in surounding, to make a draw very hard...
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Juri
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Juri » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:02

Where is it possible to play on-line?

And are there some examples of playing real players?
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ildjarn
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by ildjarn » Wed Apr 29, 2015 14:13

Juri wrote: - end-games become not so complicated, because the small advantage enough for win.
I disagree. Endgames where there is a clear advantage become easier, but 'equal looking' endgames become much more difficult. E.g. king+2 piece vs king+2 pieces is probably more difficult than the current king+3 pieces vs king+piece.
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Rein Halbersma
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Wed Apr 29, 2015 19:44

ildjarn wrote:
Juri wrote: - end-games become not so complicated, because the small advantage enough for win.
I disagree. Endgames where there is a clear advantage become easier, but 'equal looking' endgames become much more difficult. E.g. king+2 piece vs king+2 pieces is probably more difficult than the current king+3 pieces vs king+piece.
Indeed: http://mdgsoft.home.xs4all.nl/draughts/ ... -3030.html

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Wed Apr 29, 2015 19:45

Juri wrote: - the active, central strategy become dominanting. Because if you not succeed in surounding, to make a draw very hard...
The classical game also becomes a viable strategy: all the narrow draws (Woldouby, De Haas-Fabre) become victories for the advantage side.

MLWi
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Real name: Mats Winther

Re: Killer draughts

Post by MLWi » Fri May 01, 2015 08:35

Rein Halbersma wrote: The classical game also becomes a viable strategy: all the narrow draws (Woldouby, De Haas-Fabre) become victories for the advantage side.
That's the problem, of course. Players are reluctant to throw away all the theory they have taught themselves.

However, when it comes to Draughts64 (Russian checkers) or Pool checkers, I do think this new rule is a viable option. I suppose, drawishness is an even bigger problem in these games, since the board is smaller. However, I don't think Pool checkers players are very theoretical, so the games won't usually end in a draw, anyway. But this also means that they could easily adopt a rule that enlivens the game.

Comparatively, in Anglo-Saxon checkers, two kings always win against one. I suppose this is why it has a better status than Pool checkers. But with the new rule, Pool checkers becomes worthwhile to study.

Interestingly, Brazilian Checkers (Minor Polish draughts) is the same as International draughts, but played on an 8x8 board with 12 pieces per player. This variant was known already in the 16th century, and possibly even earlier. It was a popular board game in Holland, especially in Amsterdam. However, in order to make it a viable game worth studying, they had to increase the board to 10x10.

So it is essential that master players find the game truly challenging. If two International draughts grandmasters were to play Draughts64 or Pool checkers, what is the probability of draw? I suppose, 99%, or so. After all, in International draughts, the drawing percentage at grandmaster level matchplay is more than 90%. In Pool checkers and Draughts64, 3 Dames against one is only a win if the majority side occupies the long diagonal, and a draw otherwise. (In International draughts 3 Dames against one is always a draw.) So it means that Draughts64 and Pool checkers isn't really worth devoting yourself to. But with the new rule, it is probably a different thing.

Mats Winther

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Fri May 01, 2015 16:17

MLWi wrote:
Rein Halbersma wrote: The classical game also becomes a viable strategy: all the narrow draws (Woldouby, De Haas-Fabre) become victories for the advantage side.
That's the problem, of course. Players are reluctant to throw away all the theory they have taught themselves.

However, when it comes to Draughts64 (Russian checkers) or Pool checkers, I do think this new rule is a viable option. I suppose, drawishness is an even bigger problem in these games, since the board is smaller. However, I don't think Pool checkers players are very theoretical, so the games won't usually end in a draw, anyway. But this also means that they could easily adopt a rule that enlivens the game.

Comparatively, in Anglo-Saxon checkers, two kings always win against one. I suppose this is why it has a better status than Pool checkers. But with the new rule, Pool checkers becomes worthwhile to study.

Interestingly, Brazilian Checkers (Minor Polish draughts) is the same as International draughts, but played on an 8x8 board with 12 pieces per player. This variant was known already in the 16th century, and possibly even earlier. It was a popular board game in Holland, especially in Amsterdam. However, in order to make it a viable game worth studying, they had to increase the board to 10x10.

So it is essential that master players find the game truly challenging. If two International draughts grandmasters were to play Draughts64 or Pool checkers, what is the probability of draw? I suppose, 99%, or so. After all, in International draughts, the drawing percentage at grandmaster level matchplay is more than 90%. In Pool checkers and Draughts64, 3 Dames against one is only a win if the majority side occupies the long diagonal, and a draw otherwise. (In International draughts 3 Dames against one is always a draw.) So it means that Draughts64 and Pool checkers isn't really worth devoting yourself to. But with the new rule, it is probably a different thing.

Mats Winther
The Killer rule for 8x8 variants (Russian, Pool and Brazilian) would certainly make these games a bit more interesting. But the board is just too small to avoid a "death by opening memorization" (e.g. by automated opening book generation).

Juri
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Juri » Sat May 02, 2015 16:24

in 64 is used the lottery of beggining positions including flying pieces.
it's enough to make game more interesting.
but of course all openings are new...
and middle games and end-games are the same.
so this was a solution.

but in 100?
only 4 against 1 can win...
too much.
and Killer draughts will change only all End-games knowledge.
it's not too bad.
Maybe have to try?

if compare with Friesen draughts.
it's absolutly another game, so to develop it there are not too many resons...
important to save previous knowledge.
too many books were writing and games were played in normal 64-100 draughts.

in american checkers they also using lottery of first moves and also have the variant with 11 pieces.
but for 64 games it's ok.
and in 100 not opening is decisive, so have to change END-GAME.

have to organise the First international tournament in Killer-draughts!
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Juri
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Juri » Sat May 02, 2015 16:38

and variants with +\- draw and other variants of draw as played in Zeelend, Delft and so on are useless...
anyway it's draw!
about +\- draw most of strongest players thinking this is nonsense...

and other situation if in final you can win a game!
--

p.s. the end-game wich you showed 3x3 is too long!
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Wieger Wesselink
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Wieger Wesselink » Mon May 11, 2015 11:46

Juri wrote:in 64 is used the lottery of beggining positions including flying pieces.
it's enough to make game more interesting.
but of course all openings are new...
and middle games and end-games are the same.
so this was a solution.

but in 100?
only 4 against 1 can win...
too much.
and Killer draughts will change only all End-games knowledge.
it's not too bad.
Maybe have to try?

if compare with Friesen draughts.
it's absolutly another game, so to develop it there are not too many resons...
important to save previous knowledge.
too many books were writing and games were played in normal 64-100 draughts.

in american checkers they also using lottery of first moves and also have the variant with 11 pieces.
but for 64 games it's ok.
and in 100 not opening is decisive, so have to change END-GAME.

have to organise the First international tournament in Killer-draughts!
Yes, this would be very good. All other experiments that have been conducted so far (+/- draw, the Delft system, doordammen, 3-0) are just compromises that do not really solve the problem. When playing Killer-draughts the current endgame theory will become useless, but it will be replaced by new theory that is interesting as well.

Juri
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Juri » Sat Jan 16, 2016 22:15

http://anikeev-yuriy.livejournal.com/113077.html

"Киллер-шашки". Pioneer Series 2016.
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Juri
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Juri » Sun Jan 17, 2016 08:10

https://www.youtube.com/embed/GeeYqh4C2YA

KillerDraughts Pioneer Series

----------
On the Russian site there is some Positive answer about Killer-draughts from Vasiliy Naumik from Belarus, he is an author of 64 draughts programme - Edeon.
http://edeon.ru/

"Отличная идея! Браво стоклекточникам! Что-то делают! Давно назрело! // Perfect idea! Bravo 100 players! Doing something! Time for it is about to happen!

Новая жеребьевка 3168 позиций гр. Кондраченко Е. и мс Наумика В. ,если ее примут в этом году, также даст новые возможности русским шашкам на 100 лет вперед, а если добавить еще киллер-правило для дамки, то результативность и зрелищность превысят самые смелые ожидания. // if to add killer-rule for a king in 64, the number of victories and spectacle will increase significantly/

С уважением и мира в душе, мс Василий Наумик, программа Эдэон-профи"

http://shashki.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-2362.html
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