Regulations 2022

Discussion about development of draughts in the time of computer and Internet.
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Krzysztof Grzelak
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Regulations 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Oct 31, 2021 09:39

Question and request to mr clp. Will it be so worded correct for all people?

- the place of the program in the tournament is determined by the highest number of points scored in the tournament - the largest number of games won and the coefficient Sonneborn - Berger
- if the draughts engine is damaged during the game - it loses the game
- if during the game I mistake the move on the DGT board - I repeat the game from the beginning (unfortunately the problem is not resolved, you can undo the move, but you have to refresh the entire page, but how is he to know when watching the game that I have made a mistake and need to refresh the website).

jj
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Re: Regulations 2022

Post by jj » Sun Nov 07, 2021 14:44

In my opinion, declaring a loss or restarting a game when "something happens" is not a good solution. The premise should be to play one game between two programs and finish that game whenever possible.

I understand the technical issue that correcting a move on the DGT board requires a page refresh. Perhaps adding a chat window where you can enter messages can help ('move corrected, please refresh page').

For comparison see the ICGA Computer Olympiad Rules https://icga.org/?page_id=3146.

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Regulations 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Nov 07, 2021 15:26

jj wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 14:44
In my opinion, declaring a loss or restarting a game when "something happens" is not a good solution. The premise should be to play one game between two programs and finish that game whenever possible.
Understand that in this case is to repeat the game. On TCEC it is so that if the engine stops working (has been damaged), it loses the game.
jj wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 14:44
I understand the technical issue that correcting a move on the DGT board requires a page refresh. Perhaps adding a chat window where you can enter messages can help ('move corrected, please refresh page').
Unfortunately, it is not possible to do something like this.
jj wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 14:44
For comparison see the ICGA Computer Olympiad Rules https://icga.org/?page_id=3146.
This recipe is weak because in my opinion it is not feasible in practice.

"If a program crashes or an Internet connection is lost during a game, play in the game continues. The disrupted program must rejoin the game, else it will forfeit when the time on their clock expires. The penalty for a crash or lost connection is the time on their clock lost to rejoin the game".

jj
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Re: Regulations 2022

Post by jj » Sun Nov 07, 2021 17:44

There are other thinkable ways to handle these situations. I am interested in what other programmers think.

Your recipe is weak because the operator has too much influence on the results. The best way to improve this is to automate the tournament, as in computer chess. I polled this in 2019 but as you know only very few programmers were interested. So I was looking for other ways to make the tournament a little less unofficial.

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Regulations 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Nov 07, 2021 18:16

Sorry to ask, what do you mean by writing "Your recipe is weak because the operator has too much influence on the results".

jj
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Re: Regulations 2022

Post by jj » Sun Nov 07, 2021 18:44

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 18:16
Sorry to ask, what do you mean by writing "Your recipe is weak because the operator has too much influence on the results".
Suppose program A is in the process of winning a game against program B. Then you make a mistake when playing a move on the DGT board. According to your rules, the game now has to be replayed. Say the second game ends in a draw. Then your mistake influenced the game outcome and the tournament (general classification). Also, in case of a program crash or hang, we do not know what caused this: the hardware or the operating system or the operator or the program itself. Is it an incident or is the program really unable to handle the position correctly?

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Regulations 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Nov 07, 2021 19:07

jj wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 18:44
Suppose program A is in the process of winning a game against program B. Then you make a mistake when playing a move on the DGT board. According to your rules, the game now has to be replayed. Say the second game ends in a draw. Then your mistake influenced the game outcome and the tournament (general classification). Also, in case of a program crash or hang, we do not know what caused this: the hardware or the operating system or the operator or the program itself. Is it an incident or is the program really unable to handle the position correctly?
As for the incident with the DGT board, it may have an impact, but it doesn't have to affect the results in the tournament. In every tournament (even at the Olympics, where people play against each other) something can always happen that is not provided for in the regulations. I can give a few examples and the Olympiad regulations will not help me, because such factors are not taken into account by the person writing the regulations.

clp
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Re: Regulations 2022

Post by clp » Wed Nov 10, 2021 13:46

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 09:39
Question and request to mr clp. Will it be so worded correct for all people?

- the place of the program in the tournament is determined by the highest number of points scored in the tournament - the largest number of games won and the coefficient Sonneborn - Berger
Krystalicznie czyste, crystal clear.

When using Arbiter Pro, make sure that the tie-break settings are configured that way.

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Regulations 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:14

clp wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 13:46
Krystalicznie czyste, crystal clear.

When using Arbiter Pro, make sure that the tie-break settings are configured that way.
I understand and thank you Mr.clp

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Regulations 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:18

Hi Jan,
sorry to ask, do you have any other solution to the reversing the movement problem on the DGT board.

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