Match Damage-Dragon

Discussion about development of draughts in the time of computer and Internet.
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Krzysztof Grzelak
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Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Mon Oct 22, 2018 18:10

On 28.10.2018 at 10:00 CET will be played a show match Damage-Dragon. The match will consist of 10 parties, time for the game - 15 minutes for 75 moves + 5 seconds to make movement on the board. The match is played on two identical computers with processor intel Core i3 350M of 8 GB ram. The match will be shown live on the site http://www.draughtsprograms.eu/internat ... eGames.php

Setting the Damage program:

Hash table - 512M
Book - Not
Threads - 1
DB cache size - 4G
DB max.piece - 6
Endgame database - On
Permanent brain - On
The program uses from full 6 figure base of endings.

Setting the Dragon Pro program:

Max hashtable size - 4096 mb
Big evaluation table - 1243 mb
Opening book - Tournament book
Number of cores - 2
Permanent brain - On
Avoid draws - Not
Endgame - 6 piece
The program uses from full 6 figure base of endings.

Sidiki
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 16:28
Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Sidiki » Wed Oct 24, 2018 21:42

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:On 28.10.2018 at 10:00 CET will be played a show match Damage-Dragon. The match will consist of 10 parties, time for the game - 15 minutes for 75 moves + 5 seconds to make movement on the board. The match is played on two identical computers with processor intel Core i3 350M of 8 GB ram. The match will be shown live on the site http://www.draughtsprograms.eu/internat ... eGames.php

Setting the Damage program:

Hash table - 512M
Book - Not
Threads - 1
DB cache size - 4G
DB max.piece - 6
Endgame database - On
Permanent brain - On
The program uses from full 6 figure base of endings.

Setting the Dragon Pro program:

Max hashtable size - 4096 mb
Big evaluation table - 1243 mb
Opening book - Tournament book
Number of cores - 2
Permanent brain - On
Avoid draws - Not
Endgame - 6 piece
The program uses from full 6 figure base of endings.
Hi,
Dragon will easily win this match 0-7

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Oct 28, 2018 18:06

The match ended with a draw result 10-10. Congratulations to Bert Tuyt and Michel Grimminck.

TAILLE
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Location: FRANCE

Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by TAILLE » Sun Oct 28, 2018 19:30

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:The match ended with a draw result 10-10. Congratulations to Bert Tuyt and Michel Grimminck.
Krzysztof,

What is the goal of such matches in 10 games?
If the goal is to prove that draughts is a drawish game it is a great success!
Do you think such matches may improve the number of people interested in daughts?
Gérard

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Oct 28, 2018 20:13

TAILLE wrote:
Krzysztof,

What is the goal of such matches in 10 games?.
More demonstration and short testing of programs and boards DGT.
TAILLE wrote:Do you think such matches may improve the number of people interested in daughts?
It is difficult to answer this question. But I think that programs in international draughts should be promoted so that people know about them as much as possible.

TAILLE
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 18:51
Location: FRANCE

Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by TAILLE » Tue Oct 30, 2018 18:57

Hi,

This match is a great disappointment for me.
As Sidiki mentionned Dragon looks far better than Damage: in this match we can see two games in which Dragon had the win and four other games in which Dragon had a draw+.
The result 10-10 is a very poor picture of the match and it proves that it is not the good formula in order for the spectators to appreciate draughts game.
Gérard

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Wed Oct 31, 2018 07:25

TAILLE wrote:Hi,

This match is a great disappointment for me.
As Sidiki mentionned Dragon looks far better than Damage: in this match we can see two games in which Dragon had the win and four other games in which Dragon had a draw+.
The result 10-10 is a very poor picture of the match and it proves that it is not the good formula in order for the spectators to appreciate draughts game.
Please write about what games you write.That's how programs were played live with each other online and I'm not going to cheat anyone.

Sidiki
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Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Sidiki » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:31

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
TAILLE wrote:Hi,

This match is a great disappointment for me.
As Sidiki mentionned Dragon looks far better than Damage: in this match we can see two games in which Dragon had the win and four other games in which Dragon had a draw+.
The result 10-10 is a very poor picture of the match and it proves that it is not the good formula in order for the spectators to appreciate draughts game.
Please write about what games you write.That's how programs were played live with each other online and I'm not going to cheat anyone.
Hi,
As Gérard told it, if the goal of these games is to compare 2 programs, i think and already told it for the previous match Kingsrow vs Scan, that 10 games can't prove nothing.
Howether we appreciate the fact that you take time to do this.
On this forum, we all know the power of all the programs the four best are Damy, Dragon, Kingsrow and Scan. And again 10 games can't prove nothing. Dxp with at least 100 games it's better. Thank again

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Wed Oct 31, 2018 13:01

Sidiki wrote: Hi,
As Gérard told it, if the goal of these games is to compare 2 programs, i think and already told it for the previous match Kingsrow vs Scan, that 10 games can't prove nothing.
Howether we appreciate the fact that you take time to do this.
On this forum, we all know the power of all the programs the four best are Damy, Dragon, Kingsrow and Scan. And again 10 games can't prove nothing. Dxp with at least 100 games it's better. Thank again
I agree with you, Sidiki. All of these programs are the best that you mentioned in addition to the Damy. And why apart from Damy - the program is not shared. And I can not say anything or write.
I would add to these programs Damage and Sjendy Blyn. As for dxp this tool is important but not the most important. The most important thing is how every single program will go out during the tournament. I've already written about it. For a person who is watching a tournament, it is not important how much the program played a match with another program using dxp. The most important is the place in the tournament of the program. Of course, for dxp programmers it is important because you can play several thousand games and burn and change in the program and release a new stronger version.

Sidiki
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Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Sidiki » Wed Oct 31, 2018 23:08

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Sidiki wrote: Hi,
As Gérard told it, if the goal of these games is to compare 2 programs, i think and already told it for the previous match Kingsrow vs Scan, that 10 games can't prove nothing.
Howether we appreciate the fact that you take time to do this.
On this forum, we all know the power of all the programs the four best are Damy, Dragon, Kingsrow and Scan. And again 10 games can't prove nothing. Dxp with at least 100 games it's better. Thank again
I agree with you, Sidiki. All of these programs are the best that you mentioned in addition to the Damy. And why apart from Damy - the program is not shared. And I can not say anything or write.
I would add to these programs Damage and Sjendy Blyn. As for dxp this tool is important but not the most important. The most important thing is how every single program will go out during the tournament. I've already written about it. For a person who is watching a tournament, it is not important how much the program played a match with another program using dxp. The most important is the place in the tournament of the program. Of course, for dxp programmers it is important because you can play several thousand games and burn and change in the program and release a new stronger version.
Thank for this question of sharing. Gérard already wrote that Damy will be difficult to use by simple user, also, now Damy it's only for analyse position. I respect this fact that's different from Sjende Blyn.

I remember that i wrote to the author of Sjende Blyn to know if it's was possible to get or buy Sjende. I told me that no way : i can't get it and can buy it. Everybody, particulary, players that we are, we need many softwares if possible to test the style of the program we choose for improve our games by comparing it against the others différents playing styles. And it's very strange that you are the only person here to get Sjende Blyn, just, i don't know, because you do the engines tournaments. He also gave you an update.

The author he's free and not to share or sell his product. But when he share or sell his product to a particular persons or group. It's this kind of things that must be prohibited !!!!

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Thu Nov 01, 2018 09:01

As for the Damy i Sjende Blyn program, it is always the author of the program who decides about the program. As for the best draughts engines, you can write about a given engine if it is made available to people. It's hard to write anything about the engine if no one has a program besides the programmer. As for the Damy it is a matter if Gerard at all wants to share his program. I started thinking about the Damy program a little bit, but in a different way. Just as Gerard wrote that now the program is only capable of analysis and nothing more. The question came to mind. And what about the other versions of the Damy. I understand that Gerard removes them from the computer and never returns to them. If he does, I think that this approach is not serious. Gerard played various tournaments with the Damy program in earlier years. As I understand that Gerard takes care of his program and protects against plagiarism. But here's another question. Can Gerard not make his program (protected program) available from previous years (the last version that any user can use). Of course, the decision belongs to him because he is the author of the program.

TAILLE
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 18:51
Location: FRANCE

Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by TAILLE » Thu Nov 01, 2018 15:49

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:As for the Damy i Sjende Blyn program, it is always the author of the program who decides about the program. As for the best draughts engines, you can write about a given engine if it is made available to people. It's hard to write anything about the engine if no one has a program besides the programmer. As for the Damy it is a matter if Gerard at all wants to share his program. I started thinking about the Damy program a little bit, but in a different way. Just as Gerard wrote that now the program is only capable of analysis and nothing more. The question came to mind. And what about the other versions of the Damy. I understand that Gerard removes them from the computer and never returns to them. If he does, I think that this approach is not serious. Gerard played various tournaments with the Damy program in earlier years. As I understand that Gerard takes care of his program and protects against plagiarism. But here's another question. Can Gerard not make his program (protected program) available from previous years (the last version that any user can use). Of course, the decision belongs to him because he is the author of the program.
Oops, could you avoid trying again and again to acquire Damy?
I explained several time that working on draughts game in order to try to get the best program is no more motivating for me because draughts is a drawing game and Scan, Kingsrow and Dragon prove that regularly. Though I showed on several occasions what Damy is able to do, I understand you may have some doubt about the current level of Damy but think about this following question : what is the interest of proving that Damy is also able to align hundreds of draws against Scan, Kingsrow or Dragon ?
FYI you probably know I worked on "worldchampionship" variant (with draw+ results) and Damy is able to analyse positions in this context.
Now I prefer to work on breakthrough variant, a non drawing variant !
Gérard

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Thu Nov 01, 2018 19:47

TAILLE wrote:Oops, could you avoid trying again and again to acquire Damy?
I explained several time that working on draughts game in order to try to get the best program is no more motivating for me because draughts is a drawing game and Scan, Kingsrow and Dragon prove that regularly. Though I showed on several occasions what Damy is able to do, I understand you may have some doubt about the current level of Damy but think about this following question : what is the interest of proving that Damy is also able to align hundreds of draws against Scan, Kingsrow or Dragon ?
FYI you probably know I worked on "worldchampionship" variant (with draw+ results) and Damy is able to analyse positions in this context.
Now I prefer to work on breakthrough variant, a non drawing variant !
I would ask you more questions that come to mind. I will write openly and honestly. I just think that you will never share your program with anyone.

TAILLE
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 18:51
Location: FRANCE

Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by TAILLE » Thu Nov 01, 2018 20:49

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
TAILLE wrote:Oops, could you avoid trying again and again to acquire Damy?
I explained several time that working on draughts game in order to try to get the best program is no more motivating for me because draughts is a drawing game and Scan, Kingsrow and Dragon prove that regularly. Though I showed on several occasions what Damy is able to do, I understand you may have some doubt about the current level of Damy but think about this following question : what is the interest of proving that Damy is also able to align hundreds of draws against Scan, Kingsrow or Dragon ?
FYI you probably know I worked on "worldchampionship" variant (with draw+ results) and Damy is able to analyse positions in this context.
Now I prefer to work on breakthrough variant, a non drawing variant !
I would ask you more questions that come to mind. I will write openly and honestly. I just think that you will never share your program with anyone.
Krzysztof,

Your insistence becomes a little painful so this post will be my last one for you concerning the availability of Damy. Today my intention is not to sell a draughts Damy version. As a consequence I consider I am completely free to share (for free) my program with anyone I want. It may happen that I will share my program with another programmer but I doubt that I will share it with a "simple" user with whom I do not see any possibility of discussion on the program conception itself.
Gérard

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Match Damage-Dragon

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Thu Nov 01, 2018 21:00

TAILLE wrote: Krzysztof,

Your insistence becomes a little painful so this post will be my last one for you concerning the availability of Damy. Today my intention is not to sell a draughts Damy version. As a consequence I consider I am completely free to share (for free) my program with anyone I want. It may happen that I will share my program with another programmer but I doubt that I will share it with a "simple" user with whom I do not see any possibility of discussion on the program conception itself.
I thought so too that you would answer me like that.

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