AMD Ryzen

Discussion about development of draughts in the time of computer and Internet.
BertTuyt
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AMD Ryzen

Post by BertTuyt » Thu Feb 23, 2017 19:02

For those who want fast hardware, the new AMD Ryzen 8-core 1700X seems interesting.
I have no clue how this processor compares with Intel , or if it also contains the new BMI instructions Joost uses.
But anyway competition in the high end market is for everyone beneficial.
Especially while Intel so far was no match, and $2000 for a 10-core is out of reach for many.

Bert

Joost Buijs
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by Joost Buijs » Thu Feb 23, 2017 19:37

BertTuyt wrote:For those who want fast hardware, the new AMD Ryzen 8-core 1700X seems interesting.
I have no clue how this processor compares with Intel , or if it also contains the new BMI instructions Joost uses.
But anyway competition in the high end market is for everyone beneficial.
Especially while Intel so far was no match, and $2000 for a 10-core is out of reach for many.

Bert
Bert,

The Ryzen processor has BMI2 instructions, the previous AMD excavator already has this.

If you believe the benchmarks that AMD is showing the 1800X and 1700X are comparable to a core i7-6900K and i7-6850k for about half the price, AMD has a history of over-promising and under-delivering so I would wait until there are independent benchmarks arriving in march.

If the benchmarks they show are really true it is possible that the Ryzen will outrun Intel for integer calculations, but I first have to see it with my own eyes before I believe it.

Joost

BertTuyt
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by BertTuyt » Thu Feb 23, 2017 19:52

Joost, it sounds indeed to good to be true.
As usual, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
But I would welcome any success from AMD, as Intel processors are (although very good) heavily overpriced.
Especially in the high-end segment (aka the 8 and 10 core).

Bert

Joost Buijs
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by Joost Buijs » Thu Feb 23, 2017 20:09

BertTuyt wrote:Joost, it sounds indeed to good to be true.
As usual, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
But I would welcome any success from AMD, as Intel processors are (although very good) heavily overpriced.
Especially in the high-end segment (aka the 8 and 10 core).

Bert
Bert,

These prices are crazy, I expect that Intel has to lower their prices now that AMD has something similar for half the price.

I was a bit lucky with the 5960X and the 6950X I have, the first one I bought in the very beginning when the Euro was almost 1.5x the Dollar, and the second one I got for 2/3 of the price from somebody who bought it and regretted it afterwards, and I reclaimed VAT from the tax-office, of course it is still a considerable amount of money.

Joost

Rein Halbersma
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by Rein Halbersma » Thu Feb 23, 2017 20:43

Joost Buijs wrote:
If you believe the benchmarks that AMD is showing the 1800X and 1700X are comparable to a core i7-6900K and i7-6850k for about half the price, AMD has a history of over-promising and under-delivering so I would wait until there are independent benchmarks arriving in march.
Even 80% performance for 50% of the price is worth it IMO.

Joost Buijs
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by Joost Buijs » Fri Feb 24, 2017 08:07

Rein Halbersma wrote:
Joost Buijs wrote:
If you believe the benchmarks that AMD is showing the 1800X and 1700X are comparable to a core i7-6900K and i7-6850k for about half the price, AMD has a history of over-promising and under-delivering so I would wait until there are independent benchmarks arriving in march.
Even 80% performance for 50% of the price is worth it IMO.
Yes, you have a point here.

BertTuyt
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by BertTuyt » Thu Mar 02, 2017 20:43

Based upon the first benchmarks 8-core processors, for acceptable prices, and with an interesting performance, become realistic.
And the call them AMD Ryzen....

Bert

Joost Buijs
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by Joost Buijs » Fri Mar 03, 2017 07:46

BertTuyt wrote:Based upon the first benchmarks 8-core processors, for acceptable prices, and with an interesting performance, become realistic.
And the call them AMD Ryzen....

Bert
Indeed, they come very close to the 6850K and 6900K processors, still with a lower IPC, but AMD compensates for that with a higher clock frequency. Reading through the reviews there seem to be some issues with memory compatibility, the platform is still very immature, as usual these issues will be sorted out over time.

Edit:

The good thing about this is that Intel has to lower their prices as well if they want to stay competitive. My preference still goes out to Intel, just like I'd rather have an nVidia graphics card. AMD usually has many quirks in their software and hardware, in the past I had several systems messed up by AMD graphics drivers which were more difficult to remove as the average virus.

Joost

BertTuyt
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by BertTuyt » Wed Mar 08, 2017 21:09

First Ryzen, now Napels. Who needs 32 cores :D ?

Bert

Joost Buijs
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by Joost Buijs » Thu Mar 09, 2017 06:47

BertTuyt wrote:First Ryzen, now Napels. Who needs 32 cores :D ?

Bert
Not my cup of tea, for the things I'm typically doing a few fast cores are usually better than many slow cores.

I hope that the renewed competition of AMD forces Intel to do something about these weird prices, a top of the line workstation would be a machine with 2x Xeon E5-2667-v4 or E5-2687W-v4, but at current prices is a little bit too costly if you consider that it will be obsolete within a year of 3 to 5.

An alternative could be a machine with 2x8 core AMD Ryzen @ 4GHz., it is however not clear whether the 1800X supports 2p configurations, maybe it will in the future.

Joost

BertTuyt
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by BertTuyt » Sat Mar 25, 2017 21:47

Rumors indicate that also a 16-core Ryzen is in the works :)

Bert

Joost Buijs
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by Joost Buijs » Sun Mar 26, 2017 09:00

BertTuyt wrote:Rumors indicate that also a 16-core Ryzen is in the works :)

Bert
Indeed!

There are also rumors that AMD will add 4 way interleaved memory to Ryzen to make it competitive with Intel HEDP. However one of the lead developers of Ryzen says that there are no intentions to add 4 way memory, so I don't know what to believe.

Intel is the king of memory bandwidth and my draughts program makes heavy use of this, I never tried to run the program on a lesser system, but even without testing it I expect that it will slowdown considerably. Ryzen consists of 2x4 cores coupled by a fast internal bus, it behaves like 2 NUMA nodes, likewise a 16 core Ryzen will consist of 4 NUMA nodes and I have no idea what kind of effect this will have on the type of problems we are trying to solve.

One of my friends is building a system with a 1800X, when he has his system up and running I will try to run my chess and draughts program on it to get a feeling for how it performs.

Joost

BertTuyt
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by BertTuyt » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:41

Interesting developments.
Assume that Intel might reduce prices or will also introduce higher core count in the high-end desktop segment.
If we really need this power for Draughts programs is another story, which Im trying to find out ...

Bert

BertTuyt
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by BertTuyt » Tue May 30, 2017 23:17

And now.....
The Intel i9, with affordable 8 core CPUs, and a 18-core extreme model.
So up to another game, as normal Draughts is going into draw mode...

Bert

MichelG
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Re: AMD Ryzen

Post by MichelG » Thu Jun 01, 2017 13:46

BertTuyt wrote:And now.....
The Intel i9, with affordable 8 core CPUs, and a 18-core extreme model.
So up to another game, as normal Draughts is going into draw mode...
Which game do you suggest? I think chess is the only other game left where MC and/or ML haven't taken over (yet...)

There are still some challenges left in draughts. Scan is still capable of losing about 1 in 4 games, at least on the short time scales that i tested (i'll post some test results later)

Here is a challenge for you: consider these two positions:

1) The starting position
2) a 1 king vs 1 king position

Current engines will evaluate both positions as about 0.000

For position 2 that's correct, but for position 1 that's plainly wrong, since it depends on who you are playing against. Maybe it should be evaluated as an 80% win, maybe as low as 40%.

Evaluating to 0.000, current programs give up the fight before they even start their first move, and so cause a too large draw rate against grandmasters and other (weaker) opponents. While with some opponent modeling you might increase your win rate a lot.

Michel

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