Internet engine matches - English checkers

Discussion about development of draughts in the time of computer and Internet.
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Krzysztof Grzelak
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Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Thu Nov 25, 2021 16:00

Match KINGSROW - CAKE (3-move ballots)

Kingsrow 1.19e vs. Cake 1.89f 1 wins, 0 losses, 287 draws, 0 unknowns

Kingsrow 1.19e x64 - Edgar Gilbert

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = Best moves - kingsrow.odb
Hashtable = 512 MB
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Database = WLD and DTW - WLD - 10 pieces and DTW - 8 pieces
Threads = 4
Time = 2 seconds to move

Cake 1.89f x64 - Martin Fierz

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = Best moves - book.bin
Hashtable = 512 MB
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Database = WLD - WLD - 10 pieces ( base Kingsrow )
Time = 2 seconds to move

Match played on a computer with the equipment.

Processor - Intel Core i3 350M 2.27 GHz
Hard disc - SSD Samsung 860 Pro 1 TB
Memory of frames - 8 GB DDR3 1333
System - Windows 10 64 bit Home PL
Attachments
match.pdn
(178.02 KiB) Downloaded 17 times

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Mon Nov 29, 2021 17:12

Match KINGSROW - CAKE (11-move ballots)

Kingsrow 1.19e vs. Cake 1.89f - 215 wins, 6 losses, 4285 draws

Kingsrow 1.19e x64 - Edgar Gilbert

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = Best moves - 11-man.odb
Hashtable = 512 MB
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Database = WLD and DTW - WLD - 10 pieces and DTW - 8 pieces
Threads = 4
Time = 2 seconds to move

Cake 1.89f x64 - Martin Fierz

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = no book
Hashtable = 512 MB
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Database = WLD - WLD - 10 pieces ( base Kingsrow )
Time = 2 seconds to move

Match played on a computer with the equipment.

Processor - Intel Core i3 350M 2.27 GHz
Hard disc - SSD Samsung 860 Pro 1 TB
Memory of frames - 8 GB DDR3 1333
System - Windows 10 64 bit Home PL
Attachments
match.pdn
(2.73 MiB) Downloaded 13 times

Ed Gilbert
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Real name: Ed Gilbert
Location: Morristown, NJ USA
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Re: Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by Ed Gilbert » Mon Nov 29, 2021 18:06

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 17:12
Match KINGSROW - CAKE (11-move ballots)

Krzysztof, from looking in the match pdn file, I can see that you had the "allscores" mode turned on in kingsrow during this match. Allscores is a special mode that is much weaker for match play. Allscores is useful when you want to see the search scores of all the legal moves. But since it means kingsrow has to search every legal move, and all these extra searches take time off the clock, the searches are not nearly as strong as with it turned off.

From the help file:

Display all scores: when this box is checked, Kingsrow will calculate the scores for all the moves. You can use this option, along with No book to explore alternative lines. Calculating scores for all moves takes a lot more time than for only the best move, so do not use this option when you want the strongest play and only need to know the best move.

Ed Gilbert
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Real name: Ed Gilbert
Location: Morristown, NJ USA
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Re: Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by Ed Gilbert » Mon Nov 29, 2021 18:21

Also in the same group of controls with "allscores" is "solve mode". This is another special mode that you shouldn't use for normal match play. It optimizes the search for solving pitch problems. Unlike most settings, kingsrow does not save these settings and restore them when you run it the next time. They always wake up disabled, so that you don't accidently leave them turned on by mistake.

BertTuyt
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Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 19:42

Re: Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by BertTuyt » Mon Nov 29, 2021 18:33

I did not expect that many decisive games in checkers.
Are you sure this is a logical outcome?

Kingsrow 1.19e vs. Cake 1.89f - 215 wins, 6 losses, 4285 draws

Bert

Ed Gilbert
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Real name: Ed Gilbert
Location: Morristown, NJ USA
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Re: Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by Ed Gilbert » Mon Nov 29, 2021 18:42

BertTuyt wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 18:33
I did not expect that many decisive games in checkers.
Are you sure this is a logical outcome?
The match is flawed for several reasons. In addition to the "allscores" mode used (I guess this is what the chess guys call MultiPV), this match is played with 11-man ballot start positions. Kingsrow has an opening book on 11-man ballots, but cake does not, so I expect some losses from cake. Also, I think that kingsrow can lose a game about once in every couple thousand games even with it's opening book at 2sec/move, because some of the openings are very close to losing, and when it drops out of book, 2 seconds is not always enough time to play the move that draws. But also I think once every few thousand games it also loses a game because of hashtable collisions. At least that's what I think it is, I haven't verified it yet, and it's a difficult thing to troubleshoot, but that is the most likely explanation.

edit: by "hashtable collisons", I mean 2 different positions that have the same hashcode. I save a 32-bit hashcode in the hashtable, which may not be enough to play tens of thousands of games without losing a game. In chess this is not a problem, because no engine could play thousands of game against a strong opponent without losing many, but in checkers this can be a problem when every game is expected to be a draw.

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Mon Nov 29, 2021 18:51

I turned off both two functions so "allscores" is "solve mode".

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Tue Nov 30, 2021 05:10

Match KINGSROW - CAKE (3-move ballots)

Kingsrow 1.19e vs. Cake 1.89f - 3 wins, 1 losses, 284 draws

Kingsrow 1.19e x64 - Edgar Gilbert

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = no book
Hashtable = 512 MB
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Allscores = Off
Solve Mode = Off
Database = WLD and DTW - WLD - 10 pieces and DTW - 8 pieces
Threads = 4
Time = 2 seconds to move

Cake 1.89f x64 - Martin Fierz

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = no book
Hashtable = 512 MB
Allscores = Off
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Database = WLD - WLD - 10 pieces ( base Kingsrow )
Time = 2 seconds to move

Match played on a computer with the equipment.

Processor - Intel Core i3 350M 2.27 GHz
Hard disc - SSD Samsung 860 Pro 1 TB
Memory of frames - 8 GB DDR3 1333
System - Windows 10 64 bit Home PL
Attachments
match.pdn
(183.48 KiB) Downloaded 13 times

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Dec 05, 2021 05:13

Match KINGSROW - CAKE (11-move ballots)

Kingsrow 1.19e vs. Cake 1.89f - 111 wins, 48 losses, 4347 draws

Kingsrow 1.19e x64 - Edgar Gilbert

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = no book
Hashtable = 512 MB
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Allscores = Off
Solve Mode = Off
Database = WLD and DTW - WLD - 10 pieces and DTW - 8 pieces
Threads = 4
Time = 2 seconds to move

Cake 1.89f x64 - Martin Fierz

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = no book
Hashtable = 512 MB
Allscores = Off
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Database = WLD - WLD - 10 pieces ( base Kingsrow )
Time = 2 seconds to move

Match played on a computer with the equipment.

Processor - Intel Core i3 350M 2.27 GHz
Hard disc - SSD Samsung 860 Pro 1 TB
Memory of frames - 8 GB DDR3 1333
System - Windows 10 64 bit Home PL
Attachments
match.pdn
(2.8 MiB) Downloaded 1 time

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:02

Match KINGSROW - CAKE (3-move ballots)

Kingsrow 1.19e vs. Cake 1.89f - 0 wins, 0 losses, 288 draws

Kingsrow 1.19e x64 - Edgar Gilbert

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = Best moves - Kingsrow.odb
Hashtable = 512 MB
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Allscores = Off
Solve Mode = Off
Database = WLD and DTW - WLD - 10 pieces and DTW - 8 pieces
Threads = 4
Time = 2 seconds to move

Cake 1.89f x64 - Martin Fierz

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = Best moves - Book.bin
Hashtable = 512 MB
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Allscores = Off
Database = WLD - WLD - 10 pieces ( base Kingsrow )
Time = 2 seconds to move

Match played on a computer with the equipment.

Processor - Intel Core i3 350M 2.27 GHz
Hard disc - SSD Samsung 860 Pro 1 TB
Memory of frames - 8 GB DDR3 1333
System - Windows 10 64 bit Home PL
Attachments
match.pdn
(184.06 KiB) Downloaded 1 time

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Internet engine matches - English checkers

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Dec 05, 2021 17:45

Match KINGSROW - GUINN CHECKERS (3-move ballots)

Kingsrow 1.19e vs. GuiNN Checkers 2.06 - 7 wins, 2 losses, 279 draws

Kingsrow 1.19e x64 - Edgar Gilbert

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = No book
Hashtable = 512 MB
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Allscores = Off
Solve Mode = Off
Database = WLD and DTW - WLD - 10 pieces and DTW - 8 pieces
Threads = 4
Time = 2 seconds to move

GuiNN Checkers 2.06 x64 - Jonathan Kreuzer

GUI = CheckerBoard 1.77
Opening Book = No book
NNUE-file = Nets206.gnn
Allscores = Off
Solve Mode = Off
Endgames DB = 4096 MB
Database = WLD - WLD - 10 pieces ( base Kingsrow )
Time = 2 seconds to move

Match played on a computer with the equipment.

Processor - Intel Core i3 350M 2.27 GHz
Hard disc - SSD Samsung 860 Pro 1 TB
Memory of frames - 8 GB DDR3 1333
System - Windows 10 64 bit Home PL
Attachments
match.pdn
(179.68 KiB) Downloaded 1 time

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