NNUE

Discussion about development of draughts in the time of computer and Internet.
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Sidiki
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 16:28
Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: NNUE

Post by Sidiki » Tue Jul 13, 2021 18:00

Joost Buijs wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 06:24
Sidiki wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 19:14

We will be glad to accept all the update, if you give us this chance.
Scan had many versions since 1.0's.

I don't know if you know that Kingsrow latest version it's now 1.63 since 2nd july.

Just to said that we are with all each of you that permit to us to have the update.

A program will never be perfect.

Friendly, Sidiki.

Hi Sidiki,

As soon as I'm satisfied with the performance of the program you will get a copy as promised. The current version is slower than it could be, this is something I want to address first. Another thing is that it needs fast AVX2, not all computers have this or have a slow implementation like the AMD Zen1.

Thanks for noticing me about Kingsrow 1.63, I don't look at this forum very often and missed it completely.

Like you said, a program will never be perfect.
Hi Joost,

Thanks again, we will wait for the release. The last test against Kingsrow 1.62 show that things are in a good way.

Opposing differents playing style of strong programs are very important for players who want to increase they playing knowledge and playing strenght.

Thanks again for all, you, Ed, Bert, Fabien, Rein, Michel, Taille, Jaap and the others for sacrifying your time and sleeping time to giving us these fun moments.

God bless you all.

Friendly, Sidiki.

BertTuyt
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 19:42

Re: NNUE

Post by BertTuyt » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:04

In the meantime I'm retired ( :D ), and spent much time during the last months to relocate from Switzerland back to Holland.
So now i restarted work on the Damage engine.

Yesterday (and tonight) Damage 16.1 (nnue version) played a match (158 games) against Scan 3.1
Match settings 65 moves/1 minute, no book, 6p DB, and both uses 6 cores.

Result, 2 losses (for Damage) and 156 draws.

So nnue (like also Joost mentioned) is getting closer towards the eval pattern-based programs (like Scan and Kingsrow), but you need up-to-date hardware, and to get onto par, most likely another 2 years with new developments related to nnue and next generation processors with improved vector instruction capabilities.

Match played on a computer with the equipment.

Processor - Intel core i7 87000K
Hard disc - Samsung 970 EVO
Memory - 32 GB DDR4 2133
System - Windows 10 64 bit

Bert
Attachments
DXPMatch damageengine161 scan 6c.pdn
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Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1132
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: NNUE

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Wed Jul 14, 2021 15:50

Good score Bert.

Sidiki
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 16:28
Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: NNUE

Post by Sidiki » Wed Jul 14, 2021 22:35

BertTuyt wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:04
In the meantime I'm retired ( :D ), and spent much time during the last months to relocate from Switzerland back to Holland.
So now i restarted work on the Damage engine.

Yesterday (and tonight) Damage 16.1 (nnue version) played a match (158 games) against Scan 3.1
Match settings 65 moves/1 minute, no book, 6p DB, and both uses 6 cores.

Result, 2 losses (for Damage) and 156 draws.

So nnue (like also Joost mentioned) is getting closer towards the eval pattern-based programs (like Scan and Kingsrow), but you need up-to-date hardware, and to get onto par, most likely another 2 years with new developments related to nnue and next generation processors with improved vector instruction capabilities.

Match played on a computer with the equipment.

Processor - Intel core i7 87000K
Hard disc - Samsung 970 EVO
Memory - 32 GB DDR4 2133
System - Windows 10 64 bit

Bert
Hi Bert,

Welcome :D
This result it's once again good for "NNUE'S WORLD"

We are discovering little by little the growing of this technology.
Once again WELCOME and God bless you all for all you done, doing and will do for us.

Friendly, Sidiki.

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1132
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: NNUE

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Aug 22, 2021 09:13

I am wondering about one question. It is known that NNUE uses a processor. And what would happen to use a better graphics card instead of the processor. Just like chess. Is it possible.

BertTuyt
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 19:42

Re: NNUE

Post by BertTuyt » Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:11

Krzysztof,

the advantage of NNUE is that in runs on the processor only, so also in the chess world one use NNUE without graphics card (example Stockfish).
Programs which use far larger neural networks and MCTS (like Leela-zero) use a graphics card.
I expect that due to latency NNUE on a graphics card (GPU) will result in a slower program, but I'm not 100% sure.

As all manufacturers of processors, consider AI (and NN) as the next big thing, one can expect processor architecture improvements related to NN.
An example is the new Sapphire Rapids processor from Intel (introduction Q2 2022) which has AMX (which is far better compared with AVX2 and avx512).
With AMX (Advanced Matrix Extensions) one can calculate one neuron layer in a NNUE with only a limited number of instructions.

This will boost NNUE, and not impossible that in the end NNUE will run as fast (or even faster) as the approach used by programs like Kingsrow and Scan.
Unfortunately the server processors from Intel cost a fortune, so one need to wait for implementation on the desktop (HEDT).

I expect that this will happen end 2022 beginning 2023.

Bert

Sidiki
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 16:28
Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: NNUE

Post by Sidiki » Tue Oct 05, 2021 05:39

Hi to all,

As also a chess player, i got an chess engine called Eman 7.40, the latest version , controversed by Stockfish team about GPL right, (this isn't the subject of the post),contains something that retain my attention for the NNUE's world. A kind of self learning as Alphazero.

It's about a kind of saving playing experience by the engine linked to the quality of move encountered, the author Omar Khalid will explain it perfectly to you on this forum.
https://cumnor-chess-server.com/phpbb/v ... p?f=9&t=30

Joost Buijs
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 11:45
Real name: Joost Buijs

Re: NNUE

Post by Joost Buijs » Tue Oct 05, 2021 07:48

Hi Sidiki,

What Eman does looks pretty much like a technique called 'root-learning', this is something that has already been pioneered back in 1959 by Samuel's checkers program. Alpha-Zero makes use of a 'policy network' which is a different technique although the net effect could look similar.

The new version of Ares (v1.5) that I'm working on will start with a completely random neural network and automatically updates the network while playing against itself (or against others). I have the feeling that this will give better results than by playing many games in advance with a 'dumb' version of the program and having the network learn from these.

I will add an EGDB too. The network has difficulties understanding positions with just a few pieces which sometimes makes the program play a wrong move by going for a material win which actually tuns out to be a draw or even a loss. Probably a 6P DB will be sufficient to solve most of these problems.

The problem with Draughts is that on modern hardware with multi-core and longer thinking-times (like in Krzysztof's tournament), 99.9% of the games will be draw. A self learning system won't learn anything from draws so you have to decrease thinking-time to get more decisive games, which in return has the drawback that you will miss out on some tactical patterns, this is IMHO not so easy to solve.

Joost

Sidiki
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 16:28
Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: NNUE

Post by Sidiki » Tue Oct 05, 2021 13:41

Joost Buijs wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 07:48
Hi Sidiki,

What Eman does looks pretty much like a technique called 'root-learning', this is something that has already been pioneered back in 1959 by Samuel's checkers program. Alpha-Zero makes use of a 'policy network' which is a different technique although the net effect could look similar.

The new version of Ares (v1.5) that I'm working on will start with a completely random neural network and automatically updates the network while playing against itself (or against others). I have the feeling that this will give better results than by playing many games in advance with a 'dumb' version of the program and having the network learn from these.

I will add an EGDB too. The network has difficulties understanding positions with just a few pieces which sometimes makes the program play a wrong move by going for a material win which actually tuns out to be a draw or even a loss. Probably a 6P DB will be sufficient to solve most of these problems.

The problem with Draughts is that on modern hardware with multi-core and longer thinking-times (like in Krzysztof's tournament), 99.9% of the games will be draw. A self learning system won't learn anything from draws so you have to decrease thinking-time to get more decisive games, which in return has the drawback that you will miss out on some tactical patterns, this is IMHO not so easy to solve.

Joost
Hi Joost,

This it's very nice, this kind of auto skill. The idea is fantastic.

It also clear that with an EGDB any NNUE's engine will have a better result. We saw it with Damage 16.1 NNUE at the last tournament.

Concerning the draw rate, yes, with a long time thinking, almost games will be draw. The genius of each programmer help just to do the difference. We will will be happy to see the NNUE's world grow up and have some most powerful program.

So to get a fun, the next tournament, that with help of you, Bert, Ed and the others, i will run , because i got some powerful latops, will be a blitz.

Thanks for this draughts community and all the participants.

Friendly, Sidiki

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