NNUE

Discussion about development of draughts in the time of computer and Internet.
Post Reply
Sidiki
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 16:28
Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: NNUE

Post by Sidiki » Tue Jul 13, 2021 18:00

Joost Buijs wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 06:24
Sidiki wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 19:14

We will be glad to accept all the update, if you give us this chance.
Scan had many versions since 1.0's.

I don't know if you know that Kingsrow latest version it's now 1.63 since 2nd july.

Just to said that we are with all each of you that permit to us to have the update.

A program will never be perfect.

Friendly, Sidiki.

Hi Sidiki,

As soon as I'm satisfied with the performance of the program you will get a copy as promised. The current version is slower than it could be, this is something I want to address first. Another thing is that it needs fast AVX2, not all computers have this or have a slow implementation like the AMD Zen1.

Thanks for noticing me about Kingsrow 1.63, I don't look at this forum very often and missed it completely.

Like you said, a program will never be perfect.
Hi Joost,

Thanks again, we will wait for the release. The last test against Kingsrow 1.62 show that things are in a good way.

Opposing differents playing style of strong programs are very important for players who want to increase they playing knowledge and playing strenght.

Thanks again for all, you, Ed, Bert, Fabien, Rein, Michel, Taille, Jaap and the others for sacrifying your time and sleeping time to giving us these fun moments.

God bless you all.

Friendly, Sidiki.

BertTuyt
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 19:42

Re: NNUE

Post by BertTuyt » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:04

In the meantime I'm retired ( :D ), and spent much time during the last months to relocate from Switzerland back to Holland.
So now i restarted work on the Damage engine.

Yesterday (and tonight) Damage 16.1 (nnue version) played a match (158 games) against Scan 3.1
Match settings 65 moves/1 minute, no book, 6p DB, and both uses 6 cores.

Result, 2 losses (for Damage) and 156 draws.

So nnue (like also Joost mentioned) is getting closer towards the eval pattern-based programs (like Scan and Kingsrow), but you need up-to-date hardware, and to get onto par, most likely another 2 years with new developments related to nnue and next generation processors with improved vector instruction capabilities.

Match played on a computer with the equipment.

Processor - Intel core i7 87000K
Hard disc - Samsung 970 EVO
Memory - 32 GB DDR4 2133
System - Windows 10 64 bit

Bert
Attachments
DXPMatch damageengine161 scan 6c.pdn
(173.15 KiB) Downloaded 38 times

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1126
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: NNUE

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Wed Jul 14, 2021 15:50

Good score Bert.

Sidiki
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 16:28
Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: NNUE

Post by Sidiki » Wed Jul 14, 2021 22:35

BertTuyt wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:04
In the meantime I'm retired ( :D ), and spent much time during the last months to relocate from Switzerland back to Holland.
So now i restarted work on the Damage engine.

Yesterday (and tonight) Damage 16.1 (nnue version) played a match (158 games) against Scan 3.1
Match settings 65 moves/1 minute, no book, 6p DB, and both uses 6 cores.

Result, 2 losses (for Damage) and 156 draws.

So nnue (like also Joost mentioned) is getting closer towards the eval pattern-based programs (like Scan and Kingsrow), but you need up-to-date hardware, and to get onto par, most likely another 2 years with new developments related to nnue and next generation processors with improved vector instruction capabilities.

Match played on a computer with the equipment.

Processor - Intel core i7 87000K
Hard disc - Samsung 970 EVO
Memory - 32 GB DDR4 2133
System - Windows 10 64 bit

Bert
Hi Bert,

Welcome :D
This result it's once again good for "NNUE'S WORLD"

We are discovering little by little the growing of this technology.
Once again WELCOME and God bless you all for all you done, doing and will do for us.

Friendly, Sidiki.

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1126
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: NNUE

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Aug 22, 2021 09:13

I am wondering about one question. It is known that NNUE uses a processor. And what would happen to use a better graphics card instead of the processor. Just like chess. Is it possible.

BertTuyt
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 19:42

Re: NNUE

Post by BertTuyt » Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:11

Krzysztof,

the advantage of NNUE is that in runs on the processor only, so also in the chess world one use NNUE without graphics card (example Stockfish).
Programs which use far larger neural networks and MCTS (like Leela-zero) use a graphics card.
I expect that due to latency NNUE on a graphics card (GPU) will result in a slower program, but I'm not 100% sure.

As all manufacturers of processors, consider AI (and NN) as the next big thing, one can expect processor architecture improvements related to NN.
An example is the new Sapphire Rapids processor from Intel (introduction Q2 2022) which has AMX (which is far better compared with AVX2 and avx512).
With AMX (Advanced Matrix Extensions) one can calculate one neuron layer in a NNUE with only a limited number of instructions.

This will boost NNUE, and not impossible that in the end NNUE will run as fast (or even faster) as the approach used by programs like Kingsrow and Scan.
Unfortunately the server processors from Intel cost a fortune, so one need to wait for implementation on the desktop (HEDT).

I expect that this will happen end 2022 beginning 2023.

Bert

Post Reply