Killer draughts

General discussion about draughts and draughts community
Juri
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Juri » Mon Feb 15, 2016 14:23

The right steps how to win this end-game in "Light-killer"

1)Image
Occupy double-line

2)Image
transfer 1 king to 26

3)Image
then in proper moment move another king to 16. at this moment black king can be situated only on sides of the board, so can not come back to double-line. One triple or quadrant it is easy catched.

If it is true, then will get vety famous end-game from 64.
Image 6.
winning moves: 1.3710! 2038 2.1014! (important field) 3833 (3829,3824) 3.1432! 3344 4. 3210! 4433 5.1621! 3344 (5...3315 6.104! and 7.2138x) 6.4742!
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Rein Halbersma
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Mon Feb 15, 2016 16:23

Juri wrote:Image

Look like this construction is winning.
Ideas are very similar to 64.
I was playing with this position, but couldn't find the win. One finesse that I missed was explained at the Shashki forum: 1... 2-16? 2. 26-37!!+ It takes a while to train your brain to see these tactics automatically :)

If this really wins (and therefore also post-Scouppe with white piece on 15!) then that is very good news and it would make me more optimistic about the win percentage in Killer-light.

MLWi
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Real name: Mats Winther

Re: Killer draughts

Post by MLWi » Mon Feb 15, 2016 19:49

I checked this last position with my program, and it's an easy win. Except the variant already mentioned, I give these two:

Image

(1) 2-7, 28-32, 7-11, 27-22, 11-28x-37x, 26-48x, 36-31, 48-26x

(2) 2-35, 28-19, 35-13x-31x, 26-42x, 36-31, 42-26x

However, for the variant that Rein already mentioned, the program suggests this variant:

(3) 2-16, 28-32, 16-7, 27-18, 7-23x-37x, 26-48x, 36-31, 48-26x

Mats
Last edited by MLWi on Tue Feb 16, 2016 05:45, edited 3 times in total.

Eric van Dusseldorp
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Eric van Dusseldorp » Mon Feb 15, 2016 20:26

Revolution in the draughts world
About Killer Draughts
http://www.ericsdamsite.com/damrubriek_ ... i_2016.htm
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Rein Halbersma
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Mon Feb 15, 2016 21:04

MLWi wrote:I checked this last position with my program, and it's an easy win. Except the variant already mentioned, I give these two:

(1) 2-7, 28-32, 7-11, 27-22, 11-28x-37x, 26-42x, 36-31, 42-26x

(2) 2-35, 28-19, etc.

Mats
Could you please use normal notation? I don't understand: after 2-7 28-32 7-11 27-22 11x37 26x42 it's a draw, right? Black plays 36-41 (not 36-31)

MLWi
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by MLWi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 05:51

Rein Halbersma wrote: Could you please use normal notation? I don't understand: after 2-7 28-32 7-11 27-22 11x37 26x42 it's a draw, right? Black plays 36-41 (not 36-31)
Oh, I see my mistake. I thought that black on 36 moved upwards. (Anyway, the variants are correct, if that were the case.) I will check this again.

Mats

MLWi
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by MLWi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 07:12

Ok, I've now run this again. I set the program to play against itself. Notice that this win is perhaps overly long-winded. After all, computers don't like the motif of sacrificing two kings for one piece. Perhaps there is a neater win.

Image

2-7, 28-32, 7-11, 27-18, 11-50, 26-42, 50-39, 42-47, 39-50, 47-20, 50-44, 32-19, 44-11, 19-23, 11-39, 18-1, 39-6, 20-15, 36-41, 23-46x, 6-22, 46-14, 22-39, 1-18, 39-44, 18-29, 44-22, 14-28, 22-33x-24x, 15-47x 1-0

Mats

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Tue Feb 16, 2016 07:20

MLWi wrote:Ok, I've now run this again. I set the program to play against itself. Notice that this win is perhaps overly long-winded. After all, computers don't like the motif of sacrificing two kings for one piece. Perhaps there is a neater win.

Image

2-7, 28-32, 7-11, 27-18, 11-50, 26-42, 50-39, 42-47, 39-50, 47-20, 50-44, 32-19, 44-11, 19-23, 11-39, 18-1, 39-6, 20-15, 36-41, 23-46x, 6-22, 46-14, 22-39, 1-18, 39-44, 18-29, 44-22, 14-28, 22-33x-24x, 15-47x 1-0

Mats
Thanks! Btw, is this nonstandard noitation forced by Zillions of Games? Instead of eg 23-46x, the PDN standard mandates 23x46.

MLWi
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by MLWi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 07:45

Oh, I invented the notation myself. I will keep to PDN in the future.

Evidently, this key position is a win in killer-light. So it is looking good.

Mats

MLWi
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by MLWi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 08:24

I have now checked the position with Killer Draughts, by letting my Killer Draughts program play against itself. Then the win becomes kind of trivial:

2-7, 28-5, 7-29, 27-18, 29x12, 26x8, 36-41, 5x46 1-0

Perhaps this is an argument in favour of Killer Light, because we don't want trivial wins, do we?

Mats

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:52

MLWi wrote:I have now checked the position with Killer Draughts, by letting my Killer Draughts program play against itself. Then the win becomes kind of trivial:

2-7, 28-5, 7-29, 27-18, 29x12, 26x8, 36-41, 5x46 1-0

Perhaps this is an argument in favour of Killer Light, because we don't want trivial wins, do we?

Mats
3 kings vs 1 king is indeed trivial in Killer. 2 kings vs 1 king + 1 man is slightly more complicated, and 1 king + 1 man vs 1 king + 1 man can be quite complicated. Similarly for 3 vs 3 endgames with 1 or 2 kings for both sides. In general, Killer is highly complicated for almost-balanced games, where small differences in tempo, opposition and control of crucial squares/diagonals all play a role. I wouldn't judge Killer vs Killer-light on the basis of 3 vs 1.

OTOH, it is indeed good news that Killer-light is also won for these 3 vs 2 endgames, and also in 4 vs 2 endgames that are typically drawn in regular draughts.

MLWi
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by MLWi » Wed Feb 17, 2016 08:44

Rein Halbersma wrote: I would be willing to try Killer-light but only if it can be shown that e.g. post-Scouppe endgames like this win:
Image
Draw in regular draughts, win in Killer. Result in Killer-light?
My Killer-light program can't find a win.

Mats

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:19

MLWi wrote:
Rein Halbersma wrote: I would be willing to try Killer-light but only if it can be shown that e.g. post-Scouppe endgames like this win:
Image
Draw in regular draughts, win in Killer. Result in Killer-light?
My Killer-light program can't find a win.

Mats
The win might be too deep. The strategy here is to bring piece on <24> to <15>, then the black king has to be at <37> and then white sacrifices 1 king with 27-31! 37x26 and gets the long diagonal with 16-32. Then the piece at <15> can be promoted, and after that the piece on <47> which leads to the winning 3 vs 2 engame. The promotions alone will take at least 13 moves (so 26 ply search). With all the tactics involved, it could be that the longest defense takes over 50 plies.

Eric van Dusseldorp
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Eric van Dusseldorp » Wed Mar 02, 2016 17:22

Thaise straatdammers vervloekt
Over Killer Draughts
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Juri
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Re: Killer draughts

Post by Juri » Thu Mar 10, 2016 09:57

the Match in a game Go between the best human Lee Sedol and Google-programme AlphaGo provoke a very big interest in the World.
Artificial intelligence is wiining 2-0 for the moment.
In draughts such matches passed imperceptibly...

Now it is clear: human can not beat computer, but able to draw.

What about Killer-draughts?
is it possible for Human to draw the Match against the best Programme?
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