World Draughts Forum

It is currently Tue May 22, 2018 04:04

All times are UTC+02:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 5
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 20:50 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 18:51
Posts: 879
Location: FRANCE
Let me try to summarize where we are in this brainstorming.

What is the problem?
At the very top level the very great majority of the games leads to a draw and this is true for the top GMI as well as for the top programs. In any other context, that is for almost all players (!) the current international draughts game as it stands is perfect with a good repartition of win, draws and lost games.

Seeing this is it suitable to change the rules for solving the problem?

By reading the previous posts it appears to me that the answer today is something like:

We don’t know and we need to experiment in order to be able to answer such question.

That leads to another question:
What do we want to experiment?

Here it seems that we all agree to begin by trying and building rules in which a draw game disappear completely. Clearly, because the draw disappear we have to claim without any ambiguity that is a new game. For me the goal is the following:
Can we build a new game, without draw, in which the current 10x10 international draughts GMI will be also naturally very strong?

What about breakthrough draughts ?
It is obviously a good alternative because
1) There no draws
2) The 10x10 international draughts GMI will immediately be very very strong at this breakthrough draughts game.

Concerning this second point I am even convinced that it is easier for a 10x10 international draughts GMI to be very strong at 10x10 breakthrough draughts game than to be very strong at the 8x8 version of the 10x10 international draughts game!

Through our discussion it seems that the idea of taking into account the first king is a good start for an experimentation but the remaining question is the following:
Do we want to continue the game after the first king?
Obviously there are no agreement on this point and we have to work on it in order to prepare an experimentation.

To stop the game with the first king is quite simple but I noted at least two arguments
1) After the first king appear why not giving the opponent the opportunity to continue the game in order to win it in a regular way (I mean with the 10x10 international draughts rules)
2) If we stop the game with first king we lose a lot of beautiful combinations based on kings

At this point I would give you my own feeling.
The point 1) above seems not so interesting: remember we are handling a problem for the top GMI. That means that they are almost always able to avoid a losing move in the 10x10 international draughts. If we adopt the first point then we know that our top GMI will be able go to king only if is not a losing position and the consequence is very bad: in the great majority of the cases all moves played after the first king will be very boring, one player trying only to draw while the other will wait for an improbable mistake.

On the contrary the second point seems quite good.
My proposal is then to continue the game until the end of a potential combination.

What is exactly my proposal?
First of all I have to define what is a quiet move.
A quiet move is a move which is not itself a capture and which don’t lead to a capture position.

Now my new proposal:
1) If there are no kings on the board the token is always put on a neutral position
2) If a side cannot make any move it lost the game
3) If a side owns at least one king while the other side has no kings it wins the token
4) If a side has the token and can make a quiet move it wins the game

first example
Evgrav Zubov
Image
White to play

After
1.25-30 30x50
black wins the token but it is white to play, we are not in 4th criteria above, and the game has to continue
2.20x9 35x44 3.37-31 26x46 4.9-3 46x23 5.3x11 50x28 6.47-41 28x46 7.11x5
Here it is black (which has the token) to play but he cannot claim for the win because he has no quiet move!
Black must continue the game and white wins.


Second example
Image
White to play

Seeing the black king without any white king we know that black has the token but it is white to play
1.31-27 49x16 2.37-32 16x49 3.42-38 49x46 4.36-31 26x37 5.47-41
Here it is black to play, he has the token but he cannot claim for the win because he has no quiet move!
5… 37-42 6.48x37
Again it is black to play but he has no move to play and he lost the game.

_________________
Gérard


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 5

All times are UTC+02:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited