Draughts rules

Villem
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by Villem » Wed Nov 24, 2010 14:18

Are these positions legal??

Image Image

I'm not sure.

But anyway these rules needs some corrections. And some other rules also.

For example:

In FMJD rules Annex 6 says:
The following articles (8 through 11) are only valid when not using electronic clocks
with the Fischer System, but only using a given time for the whole game.

and article 11 says:
If both flags have been fallen the game is considered a draw

And now question:

What happens if play with Fischer system and flags of both players are fallen?

ildjarn
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 15:38
Real name: Joost de Heer

Re: Draughts rules

Post by ildjarn » Wed Nov 24, 2010 14:40

Villem wrote:Are these positions legal??

Image
Last move was e.g. 36x40 over pieces 31 and 34.
Villem wrote: Image
Last move was e.g. 2x4 over pieces on 13, 20 and 10.
Lasst die Maschinen verhungern, Ihr Narren...
Lasst sie verrecken!
Schlagt sie tot -- die Maschinen!

TAILLE
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 18:51
Location: FRANCE

Re: Draughts rules

Post by TAILLE » Wed Nov 24, 2010 14:43

Vraagje wrote:
TAILLE wrote:...
There is not made an exception-rule. In the KNDB-rules the order of the rules is important. The first rule is stronger than the second rule (unless the second rule is clearly meant to overrule the first rule).

There are two rules that are important.
1. The game is lost when one has no pieces left to play.
2. The game is draw after 16 moves in 3x1.

This is the order in which these rules are in the KNDB-rules. Because rule 1 is mentioned earlier, a winning position after exactly 16 moves is considered a win. Should rule 2 be mentioned first, the game would be a draw.

---------------------------------------------

I'm starting to doubt now. In the KNDB-rules you lose when you have no pieces left at your own move. So if the 16th move (capture) is made by the player with the ''winning position'', I would suppose first the 16th move is completed, and only after that the other player seems to have no pieces left.

But... you should notice during the game that 16 moves have been played, but you have no time to do so between completion of the move and your own turn. Conclusion: I do not know.
Thats exactly the doubt and I have. We are on the point I wanted to raise in this thread

Image
Black to play

After 1...7-11 2.40-44 11-16 3.44-49 16-2 4.49-35 2-11 5.45-34 11-2 6.34-39 2-7 7.50-45 7-2 8.35-49 2-16 9.45-40 16-7 10.39-34 7-11 11.34-1 11-2 12.40-34 2-16 13.34-29 16-11 14.49-44 11x50 15.1-6 50-45 16.6-1 45x23

31 plies have been played and we have reached the following position :

Image
White to play

If the rules defines this position as a winning position the result is clearly a win for white. May be it is the case in KNDB rules. With the international rules however this position is not a winning position and another ply has to be played.

What will now happen with the following ply ?
As soon as the 01x45 32th ply is played :
1) Black calls the referee saying that 32 plies have been played
2) White calls the referee saying that a winning position have been reached

We have two scenarios to solve this problem

1) black scenario : it is impossible to detect we will reach a winning position without first executing completely the following move. As a consequence the event "32 plies have been played" comes before the event "a winning position have been reached" and the game is a draw

2) white scenario : the events "32 plies have been played" and "a winning position have been reached" arrived exactly at the same time. In this scenario we have another problem : what rule have to be applied, the "General rule" or the "Exception rule". Here again we have two sub scenarios depending you are black or white.

If I were a referee and I have to solve this problem I will say : "the rules is not quite clear in this area; it is possible I am wrong but, considering the "spirit" of the game, I decide it is a win for white".

Of course it is not satisfactory but at least it makes sense.
Gérard

TAILLE
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 18:51
Location: FRANCE

Re: Draughts rules

Post by TAILLE » Wed Nov 24, 2010 14:58

Villem wrote:Are these positions legal??

Image Image

I'm not sure.

But anyway these rules needs some corrections. And some other rules also.

For example:

In FMJD rules Annex 6 says:
The following articles (8 through 11) are only valid when not using electronic clocks
with the Fischer System, but only using a given time for the whole game.

and article 11 says:
If both flags have been fallen the game is considered a draw

And now question:

What happens if play with Fischer system and flags of both players are fallen?

Image
White to play

1.14-03 39-44 2.03x40 and we reach the position

Image
Black to play

which is then legal
Gérard

Villem
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:14
Location: Tallinn
Contact:

Re: Draughts rules

Post by Villem » Thu Nov 25, 2010 09:23

TAILLE wrote:
Villem wrote:Are these positions legal??

Image Image

I'm not sure.

But anyway these rules needs some corrections. And some other rules also.

For example:

In FMJD rules Annex 6 says:
The following articles (8 through 11) are only valid when not using electronic clocks
with the Fischer System, but only using a given time for the whole game.

and article 11 says:
If both flags have been fallen the game is considered a draw

And now question:

What happens if play with Fischer system and flags of both players are fallen?

Image
White to play

1.14-03 39-44 2.03x40 and we reach the position

Image
Black to play

which is then legal
Please show some position which are possible in practical (!) game not in composition (there is a big difference)

In
Image
anybody who played a little bit draughts will play after 1.14-3 moves 7-16 and 2...16-32 and after 1.... 39-44 there is quicker win with 2.3x35+ so this posibility is uncorrect also in compositions

TAILLE
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 18:51
Location: FRANCE

Re: Draughts rules

Post by TAILLE » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:04

Please show some position which are possible in practical (!) game not in composition (there is a big difference)

In
Image
anybody who played a little bit draughts will play after 1.14-3 moves 7-16 and 2...16-32 and after 1.... 39-44 there is quicker win with 2.3x35+ so this posibility is uncorrect also in compositions
I only tried to answer the question "Are these positions legal?"
If now the question is "Are these positions practical positions ?" then I do not know how to answer the question. This question is very difficult and depends on the definition of a "practical move". Maybe someboby can build a position that "looks practical" and allow a beautiful combination to reach the position but we enter here on another subject.
To answer you question I can only say : the position is "legal" but I do not know if it can be reached in "practical" game.
Gérard

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