Draughts rules

TAILLE
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Draughts rules

Post by TAILLE » Mon Nov 22, 2010 15:30

What about this strange question:

Image
Black to play

Is it correct to say that the move 1…45-50 is not a losing move?

Justification :
After 1...45-50 2.16-11 50-45 3.06-01 45-50 4.11-06 50-45 5.06-50 45-40

We reach the following position:

Image
White to move

But black played 5 moves and white 4 moves.

According to the following rule:

6.4. The end game with two kings, one king and a man, or one king against one king will be considered a draw when the players have each played another five moves maximum.

white cannot played it’s 5th move without giving the draw!

As a consequence 1…45-50?! looks like a funny draw move, doesn't it ?
Gérard

groenteboer
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by groenteboer » Mon Nov 22, 2010 15:36

TAILLE wrote:What about this strange question:

Image
Black to play

Is it correct to say that the move 1…45-50 is not a losing move?

Justification :
After 1...45-50 2.16-11 50-45 3.06-01 45-50 4.11-06 50-45 5.06-50 45-40

We reach the following position:

Image
White to move

But black played 5 moves and white 4 moves.

According to the following rule:

6.4. The end game with two kings, one king and a man, or one king against one king will be considered a draw when the players have each played another five moves maximum.

white cannot played it’s 5th move without giving the draw!

As a consequence 1…45-50?! looks like a funny draw move, doesn't it ?
White has to play his 5th move and all the pieces are gone.. I guess it's still a win (In Holland it's a win..)

but when white played a move like 49-16 before.. it's a draw after 45-50 ;-)

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Kosmos
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by Kosmos » Mon Nov 22, 2010 16:57

TAILLE wrote:What about this strange question:

Image
Black to play

Is it correct to say that the move 1…45-50 is not a losing move?

Justification :
After 1...45-50 2.16-11 50-45 3.06-01 45-50 4.11-06 50-45 5.06-50 45-40

We reach the following position:

Image
White to move

But black played 5 moves and white 4 moves.

According to the following rule:

6.4. The end game with two kings, one king and a man, or one king against one king will be considered a draw when the players have each played another five moves maximum.

white cannot played it’s 5th move without giving the draw!

As a consequence 1…45-50?! looks like a funny draw move, doesn't it ?
According to this rule it is a draw.
I guess the rule is not formulated like intended.
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TAILLE
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by TAILLE » Mon Nov 22, 2010 17:40

Kosmos wrote:
TAILLE wrote:What about this strange question:

Image
Black to play

Is it correct to say that the move 1…45-50 is not a losing move?

Justification :
After 1...45-50 2.16-11 50-45 3.06-01 45-50 4.11-06 50-45 5.06-50 45-40

We reach the following position:

Image
White to move

But black played 5 moves and white 4 moves.

According to the following rule:

6.4. The end game with two kings, one king and a man, or one king against one king will be considered a draw when the players have each played another five moves maximum.

white cannot played it’s 5th move without giving the draw!

As a consequence 1…45-50?! looks like a funny draw move, doesn't it ?
According to this rule it is a draw.
I guess the rule is not formulated like intended.
Why do you say that the rule is not formulated like intended?
In the endgame with 2 pieces against 1 and at least 1 king in each side then the rule imposes to win in less than 5 moves. Here the first move was a very bad move but the win cannot be reach in less than 5 moves so it is draw. It is exactly the same if the bad move occurs after 3 moves but in a position where the win need still 2 or 3 other moves.
The rule supposes that the two players made only good moves.
My exemple is just a curiosity and the rule seems correct and well formulated (IMO).
Gérard

GuidoB
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by GuidoB » Mon Nov 22, 2010 17:59

groenteboer wrote:
TAILLE wrote:What about this strange question:

Image
Black to play

Is it correct to say that the move 1…45-50 is not a losing move?

Justification :
After 1...45-50 2.16-11 50-45 3.06-01 45-50 4.11-06 50-45 5.06-50 45-40

We reach the following position:

Image
White to move

But black played 5 moves and white 4 moves.

According to the following rule:

6.4. The end game with two kings, one king and a man, or one king against one king will be considered a draw when the players have each played another five moves maximum.

white cannot played it’s 5th move without giving the draw!

As a consequence 1…45-50?! looks like a funny draw move, doesn't it ?
White has to play his 5th move and all the pieces are gone.. I guess it's still a win (In Holland it's a win..)

but when white played a move like 49-16 before.. it's a draw after 45-50 ;-)
It depends. After 1.49-16 it's a draw, but after 1.49x16 white wins. :!:

Casper van der Tak
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by Casper van der Tak » Mon Nov 22, 2010 18:12

I think it is a win. You start with 1 king and one man against king, you make a few moves, you promote to king. Then you have 2 kings against king and I think should start counting again.

The best way to formulate these rules relating to positions where the party with the most pieces has three of less pieces is to make an exception for the case where you can demonstrate a forced win in the position where the minority party wants to claim a draw.

GuidoB
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by GuidoB » Mon Nov 22, 2010 18:15

Casper van der Tak wrote:I think it is a win. You start with 1 king and one man against king, you make a few moves, you promote to king. Then you have 2 kings against king and I think should start counting again.

The best way to formulate these rules relating to positions where the party with the most pieces has three of less pieces is to make an exception for the case where you can demonstrate a forced win in the position where the minority party wants to claim a draw.
I think you are wrong about this. 1 king against 1 king and 2 pieces is a draw after 16 moves, even if you promote one of the pieces in the meantime.

TAILLE
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by TAILLE » Mon Nov 22, 2010 20:08

By the way the 16 moves rule is really incorrect.
According to the 16 moves rule the win is valid if it is reached in less than 16 moves : a win in 15,5 moves is valid but not a win in 16 moves.

Image
White to play

This above well known position is a win because the black king is catpured after 16 white move and 15 black moves. I suspect that rule has been formulated seeing this position

But what about this position :

Image
Black to play

Now 07-11 draw!! according to 16 moves rule.

IMO it is not acceptable.

It is a good idea to limit the number of moves to find a win but the limit defined in article 6.4 is not correct
Gérard

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Re: Draughts rules

Post by ildjarn » Mon Nov 22, 2010 20:35

Capturing the last piece immediately ends the game, so black has no time to claim a draw. The rule is correct.
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TAILLE
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by TAILLE » Mon Nov 22, 2010 20:57

ildjarn wrote:Capturing the last piece immediately ends the game, so black has no time to claim a draw. The rule is correct.
No doubt at all that after 16 moves the game is over : the conditions defining a winning position are very clear and when your opponent has no pieces left the position reached is a winning position.

The problem is not there. The 6.4 article distinguish in fact two notions : a "winning game" and a "winning position".
We agree that after 16 moves a "winning position" is reached (no black pieces on the board) but it is not a "winning game" because, according to the 16 moves rule, a "winning position" reached after 16 moves imply a "draw game".

After having read several time this 6.4 article I really understand that a "winning position reached" after 15,5 moves imply a "winning game" but a "winning position" reached after 16 moves imply a "draw game".

I prefer your conclusion but it does not seem to be what is written in 6.4 article!
Gérard

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by Rein Halbersma » Mon Nov 22, 2010 22:05

TAILLE wrote:
ildjarn wrote:Capturing the last piece immediately ends the game, so black has no time to claim a draw. The rule is correct.
No doubt at all that after 16 moves the game is over : the conditions defining a winning position are very clear and when your opponent has no pieces left the position reached is a winning position.

The problem is not there. The 6.4 article distinguish in fact two notions : a "winning game" and a "winning position".
We agree that after 16 moves a "winning position" is reached (no black pieces on the board) but it is not a "winning game" because, according to the 16 moves rule, a "winning position" reached after 16 moves imply a "draw game".

After having read several time this 6.4 article I really understand that a "winning position reached" after 15,5 moves imply a "winning game" but a "winning position" reached after 16 moves imply a "draw game".

I prefer your conclusion but it does not seem to be what is written in 6.4 article!

Code: Select all

6. The draw

6.1. A game is considered a draw when the same position occurs for the third time, with the same player having to move. 
6.2. If during 25 successive moves, only the kings have moved, without any man moving or without any capture, the game is considered drawn. 
6.3. If only three kings remain, two king plus a man, one king and two men, against one king, the game shall be considered a draw when the players have each played another sixteen moves maximum. 
6.4. The end game with two kings, one king and a man, or one king against one king will be considered a draw when the players have each played another five moves maximum.

7.	The result
7.1. There are two possible results at the end of a game:
7.1.1. A win for one of the opponents, and, by consequence, a loss for the other;
7.1.2. A draw when neither of the players has been able to win.
7.2. A player wins when his opponent:
7.2.1. resigns with or without reason;
7.2.2. has the move but cannot move a piece, as all are blocked;
7.2.3. has no pieces left;
7.2.4. refuses to comply with the rules.
7.3. A draw is obtained when:
7.3.1. both players agree to a draw by mutual consent;
7.3.2. the rules for draws in article 6 apply;
7.3.3. neither player can win. 
Above the relevant rules copied verbatim from the FMJD rulebook. The way I read article 7 is that a draw is defined as a game where neither player has been able to obtain a win in a reasonable time, for which there can be 4 reasons (articles 6.1 through 6.4)

With respect to your game: first 7.1.1. applies, clarified through either 7.2.2 or 7.2.3 (defining the white win). Only if article 7.1.1 does not apply, does article 7.1.2 (and it clarification in 7.3.2 and subsequently 6.4) apply. So I think reaching a lost position after 50 ply of only shuffling kings, or 10 ply in a 2 vs 1 endgame, or after 32 ply in a 3 vs 1 endgame, really are all a LOSS, and not a DRAW.

GuidoB
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by GuidoB » Tue Nov 23, 2010 01:17

Rein Halbersma wrote:

Code: Select all

6. The draw

6.1. A game is considered a draw when the same position occurs for the third time, with the same player having to move. 
6.2. If during 25 successive moves, only the kings have moved, without any man moving or without any capture, the game is considered drawn. 
6.3. If only three kings remain, two king plus a man, one king and two men, against one king, the game shall be considered a draw when the players have each played another sixteen moves maximum. 
6.4. The end game with two kings, one king and a man, or one king against one king will be considered a draw when the players have each played another five moves maximum.

7.	The result
7.1. There are two possible results at the end of a game:
7.1.1. A win for one of the opponents, and, by consequence, a loss for the other;
7.1.2. A draw when neither of the players has been able to win.
7.2. A player wins when his opponent:
7.2.1. resigns with or without reason;
7.2.2. has the move but cannot move a piece, as all are blocked;
7.2.3. has no pieces left;
7.2.4. refuses to comply with the rules.
7.3. A draw is obtained when:
7.3.1. both players agree to a draw by mutual consent;
7.3.2. the rules for draws in article 6 apply;
7.3.3. neither player can win. 
Above the relevant rules copied verbatim from the FMJD rulebook. The way I read article 7 is that a draw is defined as a game where neither player has been able to obtain a win in a reasonable time, for which there can be 4 reasons (articles 6.1 through 6.4)

With respect to your game: first 7.1.1. applies, clarified through either 7.2.2 or 7.2.3 (defining the white win). Only if article 7.1.1 does not apply, does article 7.1.2 (and it clarification in 7.3.2 and subsequently 6.4) apply. So I think reaching a lost position after 50 ply of only shuffling kings, or 10 ply in a 2 vs 1 endgame, or after 32 ply in a 3 vs 1 endgame, really are all a LOSS, and not a DRAW.
You are right about 7.1.1. being applied, before concerning 7.1.2. But a lost position after 50, 10 or 32 ply does not mean a lost game in all cases.

Image

The sequence 1.49-16 45-50!! 2.16-11 50-45 3.6-1 45-50 4.11-6 50-45 5.6-50 45-40 leads to an immediate draw.

Image

The sequence 1...7-11 2.40-44 11-16 3.44-49 16-2 4.49-35 2-11 5.45-34 11-2 6.34-39 2-7 7.50-45 7-2 8.35-49 2-16 9.45-40 16-7 10.39-34 7-11 11.34-1 11-2 12.40-34 2-16 13.34-29 16-11 14.49-44 11x50 15.1-6 50-45 16.6-1 45x23 17.1x45 immediately ends the game in a win for white.

Image

Does the sequence 1.23-40 2-11?? 2.40-44 11-16 3.44-49 16-2 4.49-35 2-11 5.45-34 11-2 6.34-39 2-7 7.50-45 7-2 8.35-49 2-16 9.45-40 16-7 10.39-34 7-11 11.34-1 11-2 12.40-34 2-16 13.34-29 16-11 14.49-44 11x50 15.1-6 50-45 16.6-1 45x23 lead to an immediate draw? I don't think so. After 28 ply a new situation occurs. 6.3 does no longer apply and one should start counting again concerning 6.4. 5 ply later the game has finished in a win for white.

Alex
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by Alex » Tue Nov 23, 2010 06:36

TAILLE wrote:What about this strange question:

Image
Black to play

Is it correct to say that the move 1…45-50 is not a losing move?

Justification :
After 1...45-50 2.16-11 50-45 3.06-01 45-50 4.11-06 50-45 5.06-50 45-40

We reach the following position:

Image
White to move

But black played 5 moves and white 4 moves.

According to the following rule:

6.4. The end game with two kings, one king and a man, or one king against one king will be considered a draw when the players have each played another five moves maximum.

white cannot played it’s 5th move without giving the draw!

As a consequence 1…45-50?! looks like a funny draw move, doesn't it ?
Wit aan zet moet gewoon slaan...

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by Rein Halbersma » Tue Nov 23, 2010 08:30

GuidoB wrote:
You are right about 7.1.1. being applied, before concerning 7.1.2. But a lost position after 50, 10 or 32 ply does not mean a lost game in all cases.

Image

The sequence 1.49-16 45-50!! 2.16-11 50-45 3.6-1 45-50 4.11-6 50-45 5.6-50 45-40 leads to an immediate draw.
Agreed because the final position is not an *immediately* lost position in the sense of 7.2.2 or 7.2.3 (even though it is a loss if more moves were allowed to be played).
Image

The sequence 1...7-11 2.40-44 11-16 3.44-49 16-2 4.49-35 2-11 5.45-34 11-2 6.34-39 2-7 7.50-45 7-2 8.35-49 2-16 9.45-40 16-7 10.39-34 7-11 11.34-1 11-2 12.40-34 2-16 13.34-29 16-11 14.49-44 11x50 15.1-6 50-45 16.6-1 45x23 17.1x45 immediately ends the game in a win for white.
Again agreed. The word *immediately* being the key here.
Image

Does the sequence 1.23-40 2-11?? 2.40-44 11-16 3.44-49 16-2 4.49-35 2-11 5.45-34 11-2 6.34-39 2-7 7.50-45 7-2 8.35-49 2-16 9.45-40 16-7 10.39-34 7-11 11.34-1 11-2 12.40-34 2-16 13.34-29 16-11 14.49-44 11x50 15.1-6 50-45 16.6-1 45x23 lead to an immediate draw? I don't think so. After 28 ply a new situation occurs. 6.3 does no longer apply and one should start counting again concerning 6.4. 5 ply later the game has finished in a win for white.
Not agreed! The way I read rule 6.3 is that each player has 16 moves left after the first occurance of a 3 vs 1 situation. The 2 vs 1 counter also applies in your example from move 14 onwards, but only in a cumulative sense, not as an overriding rule! Of course, because the numbers 32 and 10 were derived from optimal play endgame databases, rule 6.4 cannot endanger a win under rule 6.3 as long as the majority side plays optimally.

One could disagree whether it is reasonable that these rules require optimal play in small endgames. Of course a balance has to be struck between avoiding endless shuffling of pieces in drawn endgames, but in my opinion article 6.2 is already taking care of that and rules 6.3 and 6.4 are superfluous and just plain annoying.

TAILLE
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Re: Draughts rules

Post by TAILLE » Tue Nov 23, 2010 08:41

Image
Black to play

I do not agree to say that this position is a win. It is of course a pity but for me the 6.3 article must apply. Why?

Firstly the rules defines a winning position as a position in which your opponent cannot move (pieces blocked or no pieces at all). Then, when I consider only the articles to apply to the above position, I find a general rule and an exception rule :

General rule (article 7. ...) : when you reach a winning position the game is a win
Exception rule (article 6.3) : when you reach a winning position in less than 16 moves then the game is a win otherwise (winning position reached after 16 moves or more) the game is considered a draw.

For the above position the winning position is reached after exactly 16 moves. I quite understand that you find some contradictory between the "General rule" and the "Exception rule" because, by definition, an "Exception rule" is ALWAYS a contradiction to the "General rule".
What is the meaning of an "Exception rule" ? The only intention of an "Exception rule" is to avoid applying the "General rule" under certain circumstancies. In other words, when a contradiction appears you MUST apply the "Exception rule". If not that means that you will never apply the "Exception rule" but it cannot be the intention.

For the above position the contradiction is there. As a consequence, by definition, you have to apply the "Exception rule".

I would have prefer to replace the number 16 in 6.3 article by a figure like 20 in order to not impose to find always the best move or in order to give the best player the opportunity to provoque a mistake but that is another topic.
Gérard

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