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 Post subject: Re: draughts and chess
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 00:24 
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chessdrummer wrote:
:idea: I have a new idea for an essay looking at Black pioneers in both draughts and chess. I believe that seeing these legendary figures are inspiring regardless of which board sport one plays.

However, we have to break up the West African monopoly of draughts! Maybe I will go to Senegal as a chess missionary. :lol: Certainly, I'm joking... both are wonderful sports.

In our sport, both the Chinese and Indians are making tremendous progress and are both becoming top chess nations. India has the #2 player in the world in GM Viswanathan Anand and the Chinese women have won four gold team medals in a row and held the women's world title for a decade until recently (when GM Zhu Chen didn't play for maternity reasons). TheChinese men are near the top ten in the world.

Unfortunately, in Africa (and Black players in general), there is not a strong support for these activities. Federations have done a poor job in marketing chess and it is primarily thought as a game for the European or American male elite intellectuals. We have taken more to checkers-64 in the U.S., but there are no organized activities. I'm not sure where Carl Buster Smith learned draughts in Chicago.

Here's a story from a friend about checkers in Atlanta:

Image

Sulaiman Smith tells a story of a Senegalese named Mamadou who approached a group of checker players in College Park, Georgia (USA) and asked to play. After the men were completely outclassed by the Senegalese draughts maven, they couldn't believe he was so much better than them! Perhaps Mamadou got his start on the sandy streets of Dakar, Senegal watching older men play the venerable board sport as seen above.


The main reason why people are not playing Chess in West Africa is the Islam. Mohamed himself forbade Chess and Backgammon, not Draughts and Checkers, strange enough. Maybe because Draughts and Checkers didn't exist in the days the Koran was written.

Image

Another, more simple reason why Draughts is King in Africa is that for poor people it's easier to make draughtsmen than chesspieces.

Maybe up to Armageddon FMJD can keep the monopoly in West Africa! :D

This might interest you, it's about chess in Iraq: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2183


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 Post subject: Chess in West Africa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 02:23 
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Perhaps that is the understanding they have, but it would not be because chess is forbidden (haram). Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never spoke on chess per se, but it is referred to in several hadiths. Of course games with gambling were forbidden and there was an older form of chess that was played with dice. In the recent case of the Iraqi election, it is said Sistani will ban chess, but I'm not certain of the Shia school of thought, but there are no text which prohibit chess specifically.

Some Islamic scholars claim it to be haram, others say that it is only "mukarrah" (not encouraged) while others says that it is accepted (halal) as long as no gambling is involved or such that it does not interfere with prayer.

Actually the form of chess we play today was the successor to the form invented by Indian Muslims and traveled through Persia across the Sahara into Morocco after which the Moors took it into Spain in 711 AD. Along with chess, a form of draughts was played by the Moors. Chess was still called "shatranj" at the time ("chathurangam" in India). When the Moorish empire in Spain fell in 1492, the chess rules were changed and the pieces took on Catholic religious symbology... this fact alone may disturb Muslim clerics today.

Egypt, an Islamic nation, is the strongest African chess nation. Other nations that field Chess Olympiad teams are Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco and others. Saudi Arabia does not, but I can attest that I get several visitors to my chess site from Saudi Arabia. Abu Dubai frequently hold world class tournaments as well as Bahrain. I believe chess may not have taken in West Africa because of the fall of the Moorish empire. Muslim African countries (Senegal and Mali) may have lost the connection to chess with the fall of the Moors. The Senegalese are ancestors to those Moors (Almoravids) who were driven from Spain.

On a simpler note, chess was in competition with draughts and the hugely popular "warri." As you stated, may have been easier to produce the pieces for these games.

Image
Moors in Castile, 1238 AD

Image
Moors playing a form of draughts in Algeria 150 years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Chess in West Africa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 03:07 
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chessdrummer wrote:
Perhaps that is the understanding they have, but it would not be because chess is forbidden (haram). Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never spoke on chess per se, but it is referred to in several hadiths. Of course games with gambling were forbidden and there was an older form of chess that was played with dice. In the recent case of the Iraqi election, it is said Sistani will ban chess, but I'm not certain of the Shia school of thought, but there are no text which prohibit chess specifically.

Some Islamic scholars claim it to be haram, others say that it is only "mukarrah" (not encouraged) while others says that it is accepted (halal) as long as no gambling is involved or such that it does not interfere with prayer.

Actually the form of chess we play today was the successor to the form invented by Indian Muslims and traveled through Persia across the Sahara into Morocco after which the Moors took it into Spain in 711 AD. Along with chess, a form of draughts was played by the Moors. Chess was still called "shatranj" at the time ("chathurangam" in India). When the Moorish empire in Spain fell in 1492, the chess rules were changed and the pieces took on Catholic religious symbology... this fact alone may disturb Muslim clerics today.

Egypt, an Islamic nation, is the strongest African chess nation. Other nations that field Chess Olympiad teams are Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco and others. Saudi Arabia does not, but I can attest that I get several visitors to my chess site from Saudi Arabia. Abu Dubai frequently hold world class tournaments as well as Bahrain. I believe chess may not have taken in West Africa because of the fall of the Moorish empire. Muslim African countries (Senegal and Mali) may have lost the connection to chess with the fall of the Moors. The Senegalese are ancestors to those Moors (Almoravids) who were driven from Spain.

On a simpler note, chess was in competition with draughts and the hugely popular "warri." As you stated, may have been easier to produce the pieces for these games.

Image
Moors in Castile, 1238 AD

Image
Moors playing a form of draughts in Algeria 150 years ago.


Thank you for this article Daaim, you are an excellent writer! I wish we had websites about Draughts like your excellent Chess-, Draughts- and Checkers-site. Probably I am not well-enough-informed concerning the Islam, though it stays strange that there are no Grand Maîtres in Chess in West Africa.

You are a member from the Nation of Islam?

Image
Moors in Castile, 1238 AD
Before they burnt the chess board?

Excuse me Daayim, I don't wanna be rude,
but when I see the aggression coming from Islam,
I don't see how to avoid all kind of real big conflicts.

And when I hear stories about the prophet Muhammad
murdering 700 jews and left one be alive, a beautiful
young girl, a virgin, and Muhammad (after have given
order to murder all the girls 700 family-members)
wants her to be his bride and have her for the night to
make love with. When I hear these stories I don't think
this Muhammad is a holy man, I more think he is a man
from Babylon, a prophet from Evil, the forces behind
Enki and Enlil.
And I think of Malcolm X and what
he said shortly before he was murdered. He said he wanted
to leave the Nation of Islam, because he had found out that
The Nation of Islam was sponsored by the same organization
that sponsored the Ku Klux Klan.

Strange stories, maybe not true, but I think, true....
Am I wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Chess in West Africa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 04:39 
Hanco Elenbaas wrote:
chessdrummer wrote:
Perhaps that is the understanding they have, but it would not be because chess is forbidden (haram). Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never spoke on chess per se, but it is referred to in several hadiths. Of course games with gambling were forbidden and there was an older form of chess that was played with dice. In the recent case of the Iraqi election, it is said Sistani will ban chess, but I'm not certain of the Shia school of thought, but there are no text which prohibit chess specifically.

Some Islamic scholars claim it to be haram, others say that it is only "mukarrah" (not encouraged) while others says that it is accepted (halal) as long as no gambling is involved or such that it does not interfere with prayer.

Actually the form of chess we play today was the successor to the form invented by Indian Muslims and traveled through Persia across the Sahara into Morocco after which the Moors took it into Spain in 711 AD. Along with chess, a form of draughts was played by the Moors. Chess was still called "shatranj" at the time ("chathurangam" in India). When the Moorish empire in Spain fell in 1492, the chess rules were changed and the pieces took on Catholic religious symbology... this fact alone may disturb Muslim clerics today.

Egypt, an Islamic nation, is the strongest African chess nation. Other nations that field Chess Olympiad teams are Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco and others. Saudi Arabia does not, but I can attest that I get several visitors to my chess site from Saudi Arabia. Abu Dubai frequently hold world class tournaments as well as Bahrain. I believe chess may not have taken in West Africa because of the fall of the Moorish empire. Muslim African countries (Senegal and Mali) may have lost the connection to chess with the fall of the Moors. The Senegalese are ancestors to those Moors (Almoravids) who were driven from Spain.

On a simpler note, chess was in competition with draughts and the hugely popular "warri." As you stated, may have been easier to produce the pieces for these games.

Image
Moors in Castile, 1238 AD

Image
Moors playing a form of draughts in Algeria 150 years ago.


Thank you for this article Daaim, you are an excellent writer! I wish we had websites about Draughts like your excellent Chess-, Draughts- and Checkers-site. Probably I am not well-enough-informed concerning the Islam, though it stays strange that there are no Grand Maîtres in Chess in West Africa.

You are a member from the Nation of Islam?

Image
Moors in Castile, 1238 AD
Before they burnt the chess board?

Excuse me Daayim, I don't wanna be rude,
but when I see the aggression coming from Islam,
I don't see how to avoid all kind of real big conflicts.

And when I hear stories about the prophet Muhammad
murdering 700 jews and left one be alive, a beautiful
young girl, a virgin, and Muhammad (after have given
order to murder all the girls 700 family-members)
wants her to be his bride and have her for the night to
make love with. When I hear these stories I don't think
this Muhammad is a holy man, I more think he is a man
from Babylon, a prophet from Evil, the forces behind
Enki and Enlil, Marduk and Nibiru.
And I think of Malcolm X and what
he said shortly before he was murdered. He said he wanted
to leave the Nation of Islam, because he had found out that
The Nation of Islam was sponsored by the same organization
that sponsored the Ku Klux Klan.

Strange stories, maybe not true, but I think, true....
Am I wrong?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 09:37 
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Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 09:15
Posts: 3384
Location: ROUEN - NORMANDY
PAULVIN SIMON and LOUIS GILLES are canadians citizens now. They live in MONTREAL.
They were born in HAITI. They left their country because of economic crisis and political regime.

Pictures of them :

http://www.fqjr.qc.ca/dames/100/panam_2004.html

LOUIS GILLES took the lead after 1st round ROBIN of canadian championship of 144 squares. His current runner-up is PAULVIN SIMON !!

More here :

http://www.fqjr.qc.ca/dames/result/cjdm04_05.txt

2nd round ROBIN is being played now.


We met -in ROUEN- DOMINIQUE HIBON who was born in REUNION island. He lived in MONTREAL past years as a student. And he knew these two big players. He was very impressed by them.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 14:11 
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 14:49
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Image Image
Djédjé Kouassi (GMI from Ivory Coast) left in 1983, right 2004

Image
Léopold Sekongo (MI from Ivory Coast)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 15:08 
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Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 23:14
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Fortunately, your information is highly inaccurate, but this is not a religious forum and it may be best to avoid religious philosophies. Besides many of the African draughts players are from Muslim countries and it is insulting to say such things about a holy figure of a major religion (especially while uninformed). There is far too much of this going around in the post-9/11 era.

Aggression from Islam? It depends on the perspective from which you view the issues. It is not so simple. Whenever you read these stories you should note who the author is and what motive they had for writing the article. Doesn't sound like those words came from any Islamic texts that I'm familiar with... sounds like anti-Islamic propaganda.

Nevertheless, chess and draughts have a common history and that is they were both enjoyed by Muslims. For your information, there are only three Grandmasters in Africa... one from Morocco and two from Tunisia, both Islamic nations. Likewise, in draughts there does not seem to be much activity outside of West Africa... a complete reverse to chess. This may make for and interesting investigation.

_________________
Daaim Shabazz, The Chess Drum

http://www.thechessdrum.net/

webmaster@thechessdrum.net


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 Post subject: Regions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 15:46 
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Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 23:14
Posts: 12
Location: USA
Very interesting information on Caribbean draughts. I remember seeing information about federations and the players there. Our strongest chess federation in the Caribbean (by far) is Cuba and after that, the English-speaking federations are the strongest... Barbados, Jamaica, and Trinidad (in that order). Our French-speaking federations (Haiti, Guadaloupe, Martinique and Dominica) are not very active, but do have federations. Martinique is probably the most active. Dutch Caribbean is fairly active in chess (and fielded teams in the Olympiad), but I would guess that draughts is much stronger in these places.

Does the FMJD hold an international team competition between federations? If so, when is it held?

_________________
Daaim Shabazz, The Chess Drum

http://www.thechessdrum.net/

webmaster@thechessdrum.net


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 16:37 
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Posts: 3384
Location: ROUEN - NORMANDY
About DOMINICA

DOMINICA is an island based in south of GUADELOUPE.

But DOMINICA is an english-speaking island. This island became independant from UK in 1979. The people speak CREOLE like in GUADELOUPE too. So when a guadeloupean meet a domican, they express in CREOLE.

Caution : There is also DOMINICAN REPUBLIC which is a spanish-speaking state.

_________________
Information : my first priority !!



L'info en première ligne !!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 16:42 
chessdrummer wrote:
Fortunately, your information is highly inaccurate, but this is not a religious forum and it may be best to avoid religious philosophies. Besides many of the African draughts players are from Muslim countries and it is insulting to say such things about a holy figure of a major religion (especially while uninformed). There is far too much of this going around in the post-9/11 era.

Aggression from Islam? It depends on the perspective from which you view the issues. It is not so simple. Whenever you read these stories you should note who the author is and what motive they had for writing the article. Doesn't sound like those words came from any Islamic texts that I'm familiar with... sounds like anti-Islamic propaganda.

Nevertheless, chess and draughts have a common history and that is they were both enjoyed by Muslims. For your information, there are only three Grandmasters in Africa... one from Morocco and two from Tunisia, both Islamic nations. Likewise, in draughts there does not seem to be much activity outside of West Africa... a complete reverse to chess. This may make for and interesting investigation.


Excuse me, it's not my intention to hurt or offend you. All I want is 'the truth'. But you're probably right, better avoid discussing religion.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 16:53 
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 14:49
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chessdrummer wrote:
Fortunately, your information is highly inaccurate, but this is not a religious forum and it may be best to avoid religious philosophies. Besides many of the African draughts players are from Muslim countries and it is insulting to say such things about a holy figure of a major religion (especially while uninformed). There is far too much of this going around in the post-9/11 era.

Aggression from Islam? It depends on the perspective from which you view the issues. It is not so simple. Whenever you read these stories you should note who the author is and what motive they had for writing the article. Doesn't sound like those words came from any Islamic texts that I'm familiar with... sounds like anti-Islamic propaganda.

Nevertheless, chess and draughts have a common history and that is they were both enjoyed by Muslims. For your information, there are only three Grandmasters in Africa... one from Morocco and two from Tunisia, both Islamic nations. Likewise, in draughts there does not seem to be much activity outside of West Africa... a complete reverse to chess. This may make for and interesting investigation.


Excuse me, it's not my intention to hurt or offend you. All I want is 'the truth'. But you're probably right, better avoid discussing religion.


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 Post subject: Re: Regions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 16:58 
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chessdrummer wrote:
Very interesting information on Caribbean draughts. I remember seeing information about federations and the players there. Our strongest chess federation in the Caribbean (by far) is Cuba and after that, the English-speaking federations are the strongest... Barbados, Jamaica, and Trinidad (in that order). Our French-speaking federations (Haiti, Guadaloupe, Martinique and Dominica) are not very active, but do have federations. Martinique is probably the most active. Dutch Caribbean is fairly active in chess (and fielded teams in the Olympiad), but I would guess that draughts is much stronger in these places.

Does the FMJD hold an international team competition between federations? If so, when is it held?


Image
In the Caribbean Mr. Raoul Alias (behind the flowers, with the red jacket, from Curaçao is very active. He organized the 12th Panamerican Draughts Championship on Haiti, early 2004, see http://fmjd.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=344&start=0

The strongest Caribbean draughts players are from Haiti. After them Grenada, Curaçao, Trinidad & Tobago, St. Vincent, Guadeloupe, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Aruba, Bonaire, St. Marten, Barbados.

Ron "Suky" King the legendary world champion checkers 64 "American style" is from Barbados.

In the FMJD Album http://fmjd.org/bb/album.php there are lots of pictures from this event in http://fmjd.org/bb/album_cat.php?cat_id=8 and http://fmjd.org/bb/album_cat.php?cat_id=7

There is a European team competition in Cannes, France, starting February 20th http://dammeur2.free.fr/Cannes/index.htm

Walter van Beek organizes an African team championship this year, but the exact date is unknown so far.


Last edited by Hanco Elenbaas on Fri Feb 11, 2005 17:03, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 17:01 
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Location: ROUEN - NORMANDY
When people speak about AFRICA, they think first about black people. But In AFRICA there are also ARABS, WHITES, INDIANS etc...

1)ARABS mostly in muslims countries (ALGERIA, MAROCCO, EGYPT etc..)

2)WHITES in ZIMBABWE, SOUTH AFRICA and NAMIBIA in priority. But there are also some of them in KENYA for instance.

3) INDIANS who have ancestors from INDIA. They live in KENYA (MOMBASA mostly) and SOUTH AFRICA in majority.

What about players from 2) and 3) ?

_________________
Information : my first priority !!



L'info en première ligne !!


Last edited by Jacques PERMAL on Fri Feb 11, 2005 18:11, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 17:07 
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 14:49
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Image
The 2000 GAYP Checker World Championship taking place at the Checker
International Hall of Fame built by Charles Walker.
From bottom, clockwise: Ron "Suki" King, timekeeper Charles Walker,
Alex Moiseyev, referee Jim Morrison. (Photo by Kristopher Gordon)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 17:20 
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 14:49
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Image
John Sadiek and Guno Burleson, the two strongest in Surinam,
Paramaribo 2002

Image
Sen A Kaw from Surinam
World Championship 1960, Amsterdam


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