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 Post subject: Re: Killer draughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:17 
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Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 15:04
Posts: 1479
Juri wrote:
the Match in a game Go between the best human Lee Sedol and Google-programme AlphaGo provoke a very big interest in the World.
Artificial intelligence is wiining 2-0 for the moment.
In draughts such matches passed imperceptibly...

Now it is clear: human can not beat computer, but able to draw.

What about Killer-draughts?
is it possible for Human to draw the Match against the best Programme?


Just speculating, of course, but I think that if Google would spend the same resources on draughts as they have on Go (1200 computers currently playing against Lee Sedol, a full year research by a dedicated team using most sophisticated deep learning algorithms), then no GM would be able to draw against such a program.

For the existing draughts programs made by individuals (Scan, Kingsrow, Dragon), I think it's possible that a GM might be able to draw in short killer-draughts matches, but not in long matches.


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 Post subject: Re: Killer draughts
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 03:16 
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 07:38
Posts: 125
Real name: Anikeev Juri
90% of participants of the Heerhugowaard masters dont want to play Killer!
they even have written the letter to organisators about it...

what they affraid?

Some of them even don't know clearly rules of Killer-draughts, confuse it with Thai-draughts.
some affraid unexpected non-draw results, so can not garantee places in tournament and therefore prices...

just now finished World Cup in Suriname.
how many dificult end-games with we had which can be lost in killer? 1-2?

Image
my game with Schwartsman. we agreed for draw. In killer - not clear.

Image
game with Valneris.
agreed for a draw, but in Hard-killer - how to draw?

Heerhugoward is not Worldcup, it is an commercial tournament.
what players are affraid?

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 Post subject: Re: Killer draughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 05:33 
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Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:12
Posts: 26
Real name: Mats Winther
I ran my Killer draughts program against itself. In the first game, white wins a 2 against 1 Dame endgame (chess notation) /Mats.

Image

1. Man a3 - b4
1. Man d8 - c7
2. Man d6 - b8 = Captured-Man on c7
2. Man a7 - c9 = Captured-Man on b8
3. Man f2 - e3
3. Man j8 - i7
4. Man b4 - c5
4. Man c9 - d8
5. Man j4 - i5
5. Man i7 - h6
6. Man g3 - f4
6. Man h6 - j4 = Captured-Man on i5
7. Man f4 - h6 = Captured-Man on g5
7. Man g7 - i5 = Captured-Man on h6
8. Man j6 - h4 = Captured-Man on i5
8. Man h8 - i7
9. Man c5 - d6
9. Man i7 - j6
10. Man e1 - f2
10. Man f8 - g7
11. Man e3 - f4
11. Man j6 - i5
12. Man h4 - j6 = Captured-Man on i5
12. Man g7 - h6
13. Man f4 - e5
13. Man j4 - i3
14. Man e5 - f6
14. Man i3 - j2
15. Man d6 - e7
15. Man d8 - c7
16. Man e7 - f8
16. Man j2 - i1 = Dame
17. Man f8 - g9
17. Dame i1 - j2
18. Man g9 - f10 = Dame
18. Dame j2 - d8 = Captured-Man on f6
19. Man f2 - g3
19. Dame d8 - j2
20. Dame f10 - a5 = Captured-Man on c7
20. Dame j2 - i1
21. Man g3 - f4
21. Dame i1 - d6 = Captured-Man on f4
22. Dame a5 - d2
22. Man h6 - i5
23. Man j6 - h4 = Captured-Man on i5
23. Dame d6 - e5
24. Man h4 - i5
24. Dame e5 - g3
25. Man i5 - h6
25. Dame g3 - e5
26. Man h6 - i7
26. Dame e5 - f6
27. Man i7 - j8
27. Dame f6 - h8
28. Dame d2 - e1
28. Dame h8 - f6
29. Dame e1 - j6
29. Dame f6 - e7
30. Man j8 - i9
30. Dame e7 - h10
31. Man i9 - j10 = Dame
31. Dame h10 - d6
32. Dame j6 - i7
32. Dame d6 - c5
33. Dame i7 - c1
33. Dame c5 - a3
34. Dame j10 - f6
34. Dame a3 - h10
35. Dame c1 - f4
35. Dame h10 - f8
36. Dame f4 - i1
36. Dame f8 - b4
37. Dame f6 - j2
37. Dame b4 - f8
38. Dame j2 - e7
38. Dame f8 - d6 = Captured-Dame on e7
39. Dame i1 - c7 = Captured-Dame on d6

--------------------------------------------------------------

The second game ends in a draw:

1. Man g3 - h4
1. Man d8 - e7
2. Man a5 - b6
2. Man c7 - a5 = Captured-Man on b6
3. Man a7 - b8
3. Man e7 - d6
4. Man b8 - c9
4. Man f8 - g7
5. Man c9 - b10 = Dame
5. Man d6 - c5
6. Dame b10 - c9
6. Man a5 - b4
7. Dame c9 - g5
7. Man e5 - f4
8. Dame g5 - j8
8. Man f4 - d2 = Captured-Man on e3
9. Dame j8 - c1 = Captured-Man on d2
9. Man b4 - a3
10. Man h2 - g3
10. Man g7 - f6
11. Man h4 - i5
11. Man j4 - h6 = Captured-Man on i5
12. Dame c1 - i7 = Captured-Man on h6
12. Man f6 - e5
13. Dame i7 - h8
13. Man c5 - d4
14. Dame h8 - g7
14. Man a3 - b2
15. Man g3 - f4
15. Man e5 - g3 = Captured-Man on f4
16. Dame g7 - c3 = Captured-Man on d4
16. Dame c3 - a1 = Captured-Man on b2
16. Man g3 - h2
17. Dame a1 - e5
17. Man h2 - g1 = Dame


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 Post subject: Re: Killer draughts
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:52 
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 07:38
Posts: 125
Real name: Anikeev Juri
Look like it is time to recall Killer-draughts againe!
In Ufa we have World cup now - http://toernooibase.kndb.nl/opvraag/sta ... afko=29&r=

Resulting games aim to zero!
Despite the fact that in tournament are playing players from Asia, America and Africa, who are very far from the firts top-10 of raiting!

Killer-draughts is changing end-games. How many end-games we have?
As for me, more interesting to follow Frisian-draughts games - there you can not predict the result.
In normal 100 draughts, if 10 best players are playing - everything is clear...
Super-blits it is not a solution at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Killer draughts
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 17:18 
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 07:38
Posts: 125
Real name: Anikeev Juri
Due to very law resulting in the World Cup in Ufa with the classical time control again raise the question of "Killer-draughts".

In fact there are 3 variants.

1) Giving a draw with the advantage (3 to 1, and so on) more points.
Like the system in Delft and "+/-".
Someting as in other sports. It seems that nobody in a knockout, but someone still won.
A demerit - you have to suffer in a drawn endgames, in a ranking there is no clear winner.

2) Solve result in a super-blitz (as in Ufa). In essence, it's like after every match to use an 11-meteres penalty.
Advantage - all rules of the normal draughts-game are saved. Disadvantage - penalty becomes very important, which are very similar to a lottery.
And also there is no clear winner, have only a winner in penalties.

3) Killer-draughts. There are two types: hard and light.
Hard - 2 to 1 win, light - actually 3 in 1 (light version is very close to + \ -, and Delft-system).
Advantage - in one game have a definite winner, efficiency will be high. There are only 3 results.

The disadvantage - we get a slightly different game.
In fact, there will be no usual endgames. In light version just a little have, endgames similar to 64 draughts.

But the middlegame and a combination part - all are left.
Just for example, in position 3 by 3 will be not a draw.

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 Post subject: Re: Killer draughts
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 17:42 
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 07:38
Posts: 125
Real name: Anikeev Juri
Poll

https://vk.com/draughtsplay?w=wall-109147903_18895

Image

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