Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Discussion about development of draughts in the time of computer and Internet.
BertTuyt
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by BertTuyt » Thu Jul 06, 2017 18:39

At least the final result was not strange to my opinion.
Scan 1, 2nd and 3th Sjende Blyn and Dragon and 4th Moby Dam....

Bert

Fabien Letouzey
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Fabien Letouzey » Thu Jul 06, 2017 19:31

BertTuyt wrote:At least the final result was not strange to my opinion.
Scan 1, 2nd and 3th Sjende Blyn and Dragon and 4th Moby Dam....

Bert
I'm not sure what Krzysztof was referring to, either.

The chinese operator cancelled participation for the second day. Presumably this didn't affect the tournament result as the program had lost all its games. However it means that two programs had to wait at every round, which is silly.

Sjende Blyn won one game on time against Moby Dam in a dead-drawn position (king vs. king); it happens in real life.

Fabien.

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Thu Jul 06, 2017 20:05

Fabien Letouzey wrote:
Sjende Blyn won one game on time against Moby Dam in a dead-drawn position (king vs. king); it happens in real life.

Fabien.
Why didn't they agree to a draw long before that? Did Sjende Blyn try to take advantage of time trouble?

Fabien Letouzey
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Fabien Letouzey » Thu Jul 06, 2017 20:22

Rein Halbersma wrote:Why didn't they agree to a draw long before that? Did Sjende Blyn try to take advantage of time trouble?
I might have made it appear worse than it actually was: they had just exchanged pieces to that position. Nonetheless, the draw must have been known for many moves.

I do remember Bert offering a draw to Deep Nikita in a similar situation two years ago. Kudos to him.

BertTuyt
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by BertTuyt » Thu Jul 06, 2017 21:30

Fabien, you are right.
The operator forgot several times to activate the clock, which we both didn't notice.
And in a drawn position, for both programs, he was a few seconds before going through his clock.
Thats not a reason to claim victory.
There is a grey line however, if another program spents all time in the mid game, and therefore can escape, while the other program has better time management.

I also remember to be on the other side of the equation.
In a 4m - 1m endgame, where all man would become king.
At that point in time my program did not directly execute a DB move, so it keeps searching.
So despite my program was winning, and the other also saw the win, i would run through the clock.
I offered in that position a draw, which was accepted.
Still don't know if this was really fairplay...

Bert

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Thu Jul 06, 2017 21:33

Fabien Letouzey wrote:
Rein Halbersma wrote:Why didn't they agree to a draw long before that? Did Sjende Blyn try to take advantage of time trouble?
I might have made it appear worse than it actually was: they had just exchanged pieces to that position. Nonetheless, the draw must have been known for many moves.

I do remember Bert offering a draw to Deep Nikita in a similar situation two years ago. Kudos to him.
Well, Harm and Jelle are both very experienced operators, so it's within the rules, no complaints from me :)

Jelle Wiersma
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Jelle Wiersma » Thu Jul 06, 2017 22:25

Well, it's always a dilemma to claim a win based on the clock or not...

However, the fact is that we use a clock(!) and that Moby Dam had to play 20-30 moves or so in only 2-3 minutes.
This still would have been possible, if Moby Dam had just went for the draw. But, the program was optimizing for material and as such spent time on each move. So after several moves, it's clock reached zero. We then continued playing some additonal moves, until Jaap was aware of the situation, and then I claimed a win.

Nevertheless, it's not the preferred way of winning; instead of this win, I really would have preferred to win one of the almost wins agains TDKing and Cerberus.

Jelle Wiersma
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Jelle Wiersma » Thu Jul 06, 2017 22:38

Btw, I saw that the result table is now in toernooibase (the games not yet).
http://toernooibase.kndb.nl/opvraag/sta ... 8&afko=&r=

BertTuyt
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by BertTuyt » Thu Jul 06, 2017 22:43

Jelle, i know it is a dilemma, and everyone should make the call himself.
The rules are transparent here, otherwise we wouldn't need a clock.

I also don't know at what point the draw was clear for both.
If that was already at the 2-3 minutes before zero, i can imagine (at least in my case),
that I would offer a draw when i was certain he would go trough the clock.

But the argument is also valid, that he had the advantage in the mid game.
So everyone is right, more or less, and we should respect either decision.
Nevertheless congratulations with the 2nd place,


Bert

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Thu Jul 06, 2017 23:01

Jelle Wiersma wrote:Btw, I saw that the result table is now in toernooibase (the games not yet).
http://toernooibase.kndb.nl/opvraag/sta ... 8&afko=&r=
That is a collaborative site, you can add your own games! (And congrats on your medal)

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Thu Jul 06, 2017 23:35

Fabien Letouzey wrote: I'm not sure what Krzysztof was referring to, either.

Fabien.
Because I look at the tables on the page http://toernooibase.kndb.nl/opvraag/sta ... 8&afko=&r= I think it is badly done. If someone asks me about the reason then first - there is no in the first and second round of the program Moby Dam. I do not write any program that pauses.

Fabien Letouzey
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Fabien Letouzey » Fri Jul 07, 2017 08:46

TAILLE wrote:Hi Fabien,

Congratulations to you for this new victory. Scan is undoubtely the current best program.
Are the games available for post analysis?
I don't think so, but here are Scan's games. I actually think Scan had a bad tournament, as the results against the middle of the pack (the only interesting games) were all sub-par compared to my expectations (in the sense of average result).

Before you claim discovery, Tornado and GWD had easy draws: 44. ... 14-19 and 36. ... 9-13 respectively (which GWD finds with a little more time). More interesting would be the wins that Scan might have missed.
Attachments
scan.pdn
Scan's games
(15.22 KiB) Downloaded 114 times

Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Fri Jul 07, 2017 08:53

I understand Fabien that you have played Scan 2. Do you modify the code in the program while preparing for the tournament at the Olympics.

Fabien Letouzey
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Fabien Letouzey » Fri Jul 07, 2017 09:12

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:I understand Fabien that you have played Scan 2. Do you modify the code in the program while preparing for the tournament at the Olympics.
No: it was Scan 3, and I didn't change the program during the tournament.

However I remember that GWD (and maybe Dragon Draughts) was modified between the two days. IMO it makes the tournament results harder to interpret; for example Scan played an improved GWD compared to others, but I might remember wrong.

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Computer Olympiad 2017 Draughts

Post by Rein Halbersma » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:39

Fabien Letouzey wrote:
TAILLE wrote:Hi Fabien,

Congratulations to you for this new victory. Scan is undoubtely the current best program.
Are the games available for post analysis?
I don't think so, but here are Scan's games. I actually think Scan had a bad tournament, as the results against the middle of the pack (the only interesting games) were all sub-par compared to my expectations (in the sense of average result).

Before you claim discovery, Tornado and GWD had easy draws: 44. ... 14-19 and 36. ... 9-13 respectively (which GWD finds with a little more time). More interesting would be the wins that Scan might have missed.
Image
Scan-Cerberus 29. 34-30! 25x34 30. 44-39!

A cute manoeuvre to take control of the right wing, 30... 34-40 31. 39-34 40x20 32. 28-23 18x29 33. 33x4

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