Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Discussion about development of draughts in the time of computer and Internet.
Ed Gilbert
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Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by Ed Gilbert » Sun Jan 22, 2017 13:03

I received the following email today. -- Ed


As most of you already may know, there will be another Olympiad in july next in Leiden (not in Canada as was promised earlier).
The playing days for International Draughts will be saturday the first of July and sunday the second of July.
More details of the tournament will reach you via the Olympiad organization.

But earlier on, on sunday the 30th of april 2017 there may be another tournament in Leiden in the Mindsports Centre.
Our colleagues of computerchess will hold their open tournament on the location and invite us computerdraught enthusiastics to join
them on the last day of their tournament.
The tournament will go on only with a sufficient number of participants let’s say a minimum of 8 participants.
The format of this tournament is as yet open, any suggestions from the candidate participants will be welcomed.
If you are interested on participating the 30 april tournament please answer this e-mail on short notice.


fr gr



Leo Nagels

Joost Buijs
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by Joost Buijs » Sun Jan 22, 2017 15:15

Gijsbert Wiesenekker was so kind to forward this mail to me and in the mean time I asked Leo Nagels to add me to the mailinglist.

Since the tournament at 30 april is just one day I think I will participate, about the Olympiad I'm not sure yet, it depends upon how many days it takes and what the location will be, last year it was at Leiden university so I guess it will be somewhere else this year.

According to Leo it will be 2 days and at the same location as last year, I will think about it.

Joost

Ed Gilbert
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by Ed Gilbert » Sun Jan 22, 2017 16:51

Around 10 years ago when I first became interested in 10x10 draughts programming, I saw on various web sites the results of many computer draughts tournaments, but I could never find a single instance of a tournament announcement. After some time I had built a draughts program and some endgame databases, and thought it would be nice to participate in a tournament, but still could not find any info online. I think it was Harm Jetten that gave me the info about an upcoming Culemborg tournament, and I got plane tickets at the last minute to attend. I've tried to post these announcements ever since, thinking there might be other new draughts programmers out there that could be encouraged to participate if they knew about the tournaments.

-- Ed

Joost Buijs
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by Joost Buijs » Sun Jan 22, 2017 19:23

Ed Gilbert wrote:Around 10 years ago when I first became interested in 10x10 draughts programming, I saw on various web sites the results of many computer draughts tournaments, but I could never find a single instance of a tournament announcement. After some time I had built a draughts program and some endgame databases, and thought it would be nice to participate in a tournament, but still could not find any info online. I think it was Harm Jetten that gave me the info about an upcoming Culemborg tournament, and I got plane tickets at the last minute to attend. I've tried to post these announcements ever since, thinking there might be other new draughts programmers out there that could be encouraged to participate if they knew about the tournaments.

-- Ed
Indeed, it is always good to know about upcoming tournaments. I remember in the past I attended the Culemborg tournament a few times and I vaguely remember a tournament near Hengelo in the Netherlands, after this I missed several tournaments because I didn't have information about them and at a certain point I lost interest completely.

Email and internet were not very common 25 years ago, most people didn't have email at all, most of the time I got to know about tournaments with mouth to mouth communication, nowadays it is a lot easier though.

I guess I'm spoiled a little bit by the many computer-chess tournaments, besides the yearly Olympiad there are many other tournaments on chess-servers like ICC, FICS and not to forget the monthly chess-tournament for novice engine authors on Harm Geert Muller's server, this is always a lot of fun. The nicest tournament that I attended to in the past was the Aegon tournament from 1986 to 1997 where 50 chess engines were playing 50 strong chess players like Bronstein, Yasser Seirawan and the Polgar sisters to name a few.

I've been playing with the idea to build a draughts server to get some activity going on, this is several months of work though, there are two problems with this, first of all it is difficult because there is no common protocol used by most engines, the second problem is that there probably is no interest in something like this and that it would be a waste of time.

Joost

BertTuyt
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by BertTuyt » Sun Jan 22, 2017 19:56

Joost, we played 2 times against each other.
As I remember your program was called Nightmare.
The first encounter was a nightmare for Damage (1992 Hengelo), as Damage lost.
Also in 1993 we played against each other in Culemborg 1-1.

Time flies when you are having fun :)

Bert

Joost Buijs
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by Joost Buijs » Mon Jan 23, 2017 13:17

BertTuyt wrote:Joost, we played 2 times against each other.
As I remember your program was called Nightmare.
The first encounter was a nightmare for Damage (1992 Hengelo), as Damage lost.
Also in 1993 we played against each other in Culemborg 1-1.

Time flies when you are having fun :)

Bert
For nostalgic reasons I still kept the source of the 1992 program which I wrote over the course of three weeks.
At that time I was rather quick at programming, now it would take me at least three months. :(

The fun part is that the old 'C' source still compiles without error under VS2017, it is rather slow though, roughly 25 times slower as my new program. Instead of a bitboard representation it has a mailbox representation and it didn't understand redundant captures. As I recall evaluation was inspired by a booklet from Harm Wiersma 'Analyse van spelvormen'.

Joost

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by Rein Halbersma » Mon Jan 23, 2017 14:48

Joost Buijs wrote:
BertTuyt wrote:Joost, we played 2 times against each other.
As I remember your program was called Nightmare.
The first encounter was a nightmare for Damage (1992 Hengelo), as Damage lost.
Also in 1993 we played against each other in Culemborg 1-1.

Time flies when you are having fun :)

Bert
For nostalgic reasons I still kept the source of the 1992 program which I wrote over the course of three weeks.
At that time I was rather quick at programming, now it would take me at least three months. :(

The fun part is that the old 'C' source still compiles without error under VS2017, it is rather slow though, roughly 25 times slower as my new program. Instead of a bitboard representation it has a mailbox representation and it didn't understand redundant captures. As I recall evaluation was inspired by a booklet from Harm Wiersma 'Analyse van spelvormen'.

Joost
Talking about nostalgia! That book (with a yellow cover) by Wiersma was part 4 in a series of books for aspiring draughts players like me when I was a youth player. I think I literally read this book to threads :) Part 2 (the purple cover) was about combinations and my copy has small pencil-marked notes with the time in seconds that it took Truus to solve them. Some even took over 1 minute. I don't think there is any combination in that book that Kingsrow or any other modern program can't solve instantly.

Joost Buijs
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by Joost Buijs » Mon Jan 23, 2017 15:43

Rein Halbersma wrote:
Joost Buijs wrote:
BertTuyt wrote:Joost, we played 2 times against each other.
As I remember your program was called Nightmare.
The first encounter was a nightmare for Damage (1992 Hengelo), as Damage lost.
Also in 1993 we played against each other in Culemborg 1-1.

Time flies when you are having fun :)

Bert
For nostalgic reasons I still kept the source of the 1992 program which I wrote over the course of three weeks.
At that time I was rather quick at programming, now it would take me at least three months. :(

The fun part is that the old 'C' source still compiles without error under VS2017, it is rather slow though, roughly 25 times slower as my new program. Instead of a bitboard representation it has a mailbox representation and it didn't understand redundant captures. As I recall evaluation was inspired by a booklet from Harm Wiersma 'Analyse van spelvormen'.

Joost
Talking about nostalgia! That book (with a yellow cover) by Wiersma was part 4 in a series of books for aspiring draughts players like me when I was a youth player. I think I literally read this book to threads :) Part 2 (the purple cover) was about combinations and my copy has small pencil-marked notes with the time in seconds that it took Truus to solve them. Some even took over 1 minute. I don't think there is any combination in that book that Kingsrow or any other modern program can't solve instantly.
For the purpose of getting some Draughts knowledge into my engine I bought the whole series in 1992, 10 years ago I lend the 4 books to a colleague at work and I never got them back, recently I bought the yellow one in mint condition from 'marktplaats' to my knowledge this is the most important one with respect to positional evaluation.

Rein Halbersma
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by Rein Halbersma » Mon Jan 23, 2017 16:14

Joost Buijs wrote:
Rein Halbersma wrote:
Joost Buijs wrote:
For nostalgic reasons I still kept the source of the 1992 program which I wrote over the course of three weeks.
At that time I was rather quick at programming, now it would take me at least three months. :(

The fun part is that the old 'C' source still compiles without error under VS2017, it is rather slow though, roughly 25 times slower as my new program. Instead of a bitboard representation it has a mailbox representation and it didn't understand redundant captures. As I recall evaluation was inspired by a booklet from Harm Wiersma 'Analyse van spelvormen'.

Joost
Talking about nostalgia! That book (with a yellow cover) by Wiersma was part 4 in a series of books for aspiring draughts players like me when I was a youth player. I think I literally read this book to threads :) Part 2 (the purple cover) was about combinations and my copy has small pencil-marked notes with the time in seconds that it took Truus to solve them. Some even took over 1 minute. I don't think there is any combination in that book that Kingsrow or any other modern program can't solve instantly.
For the purpose of getting some Draughts knowledge into my engine I bought the whole series in 1992, 10 years ago I lend the 4 books to a colleague at work and I never got them back, recently I bought the yellow one in mint condition from 'marktplaats' to my knowledge this is the most important one with respect to positional evaluation.
the most accessible is A Course in Draughts (3 parts): https://fmjd.org/promo/cid.php

MichelG
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by MichelG » Mon Jan 23, 2017 22:05

For me, 1 tournament is enough this year. Dragon will join for one of the 2 tournaments, but i haven't decided yet which one.

Michel

BertTuyt
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by BertTuyt » Thu Jan 26, 2017 21:29

MichelG wrote:For me, 1 tournament is enough this year. Dragon will join for one of the 2 tournaments, but i haven't decided yet which one.

Michel
Michel, welcome, any major/minor changes/improvements with respect to Dragon worth mentioning.

Bert

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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by MichelG » Fri Jan 27, 2017 08:59

BertTuyt wrote:
Michel, welcome, any major/minor changes/improvements with respect to Dragon worth mentioning.

Bert
I haven't had much time to spend on dragon. Mostly there are some minor improvements. There is one major algorithmic improvement in development, but that won't be fully ready for the next tournament.

Apart from that, i think in order to advance further, dragon needs a rewrite of both the eval and search functions to make it faster. But i am wondering if that is worth it. The number of draws between the top engines are already 95%, and will increase only further.

Michel

Maurits Meijer
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by Maurits Meijer » Fri Jan 27, 2017 18:28

Joost Buijs wrote: I've been playing with the idea to build a draughts server to get some activity going on, this is several months of work though, there are two problems with this, first of all it is difficult because there is no common protocol used by most engines, the second problem is that there probably is no interest in something like this and that it would be a waste of time.

Joost
It might be just a couple of days work to get something like this going on the Slagzet.com server. I can commit to not implementing it soon, but I'd like to know who would use such a feature.
http://slagzet.com

Jelle Wiersma
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by Jelle Wiersma » Sat Jan 28, 2017 09:45

Funny, I also have "Analyse van spelvormen" by Harm Wiersma. Years ago I used exercise 312 to test my engine, nowadays 312 is trivial...
I can also recommend "A Course in Draughts" by Tjalling Goedemoed.

About the tournaments: I will likely not participate at April 30th, however I do intend to participate in July.

BertTuyt
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Re: Announcement of 2 computerdraughts tournaments

Post by BertTuyt » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:28

I can also recommend the (2) books from Michael Kaetz, StrategyKompas.

Most likely work (in Switserland) will not enable me to visit Holland for the 2 tournaments.

Bert

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