Internet engine matches
Re: Internet engine matches
Hi Bert,
My appoach is the following:
1) each time I see a Damy win I analyse if Damy anticipate correctly this win and I try to improve this early advantage detection
2) each time I see a Kingsrow win I try to add the corresponding winning strategy to Damy's program. As a consequence Damy will not only be able to avoid similar loss but it will be able to apply a new winning strategy.
I do not consider a draw as a good news. Let's imagine a 30 games match between Damage and Kingsrow and taking the point of view of Damage wich result do you prefer:
1) 10 wins, 20 losses
2) 30 draws
As far as I am concerned I prefer the first scenario because in this scenario I know Damage would have the potential to win a lot of games. The second scenario seems very poor for potential improvment isn't it?
Oops are you really satisfied by a long serie of draws? Why not try and increase the number of wins instead of limiting the number of losses?BertTuyt wrote:Gerard,
any news regarding (thematic) Damy matches against KingsRow.
I play nowadays mini matches (first 30 ballots) and i aim to play ( at least) 30 draws.
Last match 1 lost game, but it gave a clue for improvement, and thats the good news !!
Bert
My appoach is the following:
1) each time I see a Damy win I analyse if Damy anticipate correctly this win and I try to improve this early advantage detection
2) each time I see a Kingsrow win I try to add the corresponding winning strategy to Damy's program. As a consequence Damy will not only be able to avoid similar loss but it will be able to apply a new winning strategy.
I do not consider a draw as a good news. Let's imagine a 30 games match between Damage and Kingsrow and taking the point of view of Damage wich result do you prefer:
1) 10 wins, 20 losses
2) 30 draws
As far as I am concerned I prefer the first scenario because in this scenario I know Damage would have the potential to win a lot of games. The second scenario seems very poor for potential improvment isn't it?
Gérard
Re: Internet engine matches
Gerard, im not satisfied with a long series of draws.
But im also realistic.
Before you can win you should at least draw.
So thats what I do, improving the program, so that the latest short match was 29 Draw , 1 Lost game.
Of course the next step is finding ways to win.
Anyway that still leaves my question unanswered, how far you are with thematic matches, and/or real matches, is it already possible to provide a WDL (Win/Draw/Lose) answer?
Bert
But im also realistic.
Before you can win you should at least draw.
So thats what I do, improving the program, so that the latest short match was 29 Draw , 1 Lost game.
Of course the next step is finding ways to win.
Anyway that still leaves my question unanswered, how far you are with thematic matches, and/or real matches, is it already possible to provide a WDL (Win/Draw/Lose) answer?
Bert
Re: Internet engine matches
Hi Bert,
My last match were played the 7/4 with the following result
For Damy point of view : 13 wins, 17 losses, 116 draws (146 games)
I am not quite satisfied with only 13 wins because Damy missed some other good opportunities. Anyway the 17 Kingsrow wins showed me some other winning strategy I have to take into account. For that I have first to restructure a little my eval function of positions with one king and I have planned another match end of May.
I keep you posted
BertTuyt wrote:Gerard, im not satisfied with a long series of draws.
But im also realistic.
Before you can win you should at least draw.
So thats what I do, improving the program, so that the latest short match was 29 Draw , 1 Lost game.
Of course the next step is finding ways to win.
Anyway that still leaves my question unanswered, how far you are with thematic matches, and/or real matches, is it already possible to provide a WDL (Win/Draw/Lose) answer?
Bert
My last match were played the 7/4 with the following result
For Damy point of view : 13 wins, 17 losses, 116 draws (146 games)
I am not quite satisfied with only 13 wins because Damy missed some other good opportunities. Anyway the 17 Kingsrow wins showed me some other winning strategy I have to take into account. For that I have first to restructure a little my eval function of positions with one king and I have planned another match end of May.
I keep you posted
Gérard
Re: Internet engine matches
Gerard for my understanding, there a 9 * 9 = 81 games possible in your example, * 2 for the color to move = 162.
So a full 2move ballot match is 162
So i do not fully understand the 146?
Bert
So a full 2move ballot match is 162
So i do not fully understand the 146?
Bert
Re: Internet engine matches
Bert,
Did you yourself run a similar match against Kingsrow, starting with the same position?
Yes Bert you are right. I just have to face a Damy crash during the 147th game. Now this bug I encountered is fixed.BertTuyt wrote:Gerard for my understanding, there a 9 * 9 = 81 games possible in your example, * 2 for the color to move = 162.
So a full 2move ballot match is 162
So i do not fully understand the 146?
Bert
Did you yourself run a similar match against Kingsrow, starting with the same position?
Gérard
Re: Internet engine matches
Gerard, no i didn't start a match with the position you used.
So far the 2ballot games are hardcoded in my program.
So i need to change something in my code to make this possible..
Anyway, it is interesting, maybe i might find some time during the weekend.
But definitely I will put it on my "things to do list"..
Bert
So far the 2ballot games are hardcoded in my program.
So i need to change something in my code to make this possible..
Anyway, it is interesting, maybe i might find some time during the weekend.
But definitely I will put it on my "things to do list"..
Bert
Re: Internet engine matches
I was able to quickly modify code, so i could also start a match with a nonstandard position.
The stats so far (from the perspective of Damage) and base position as used by Gerard.
Damage  KingsRow: 50 games, 2 Win, 3 Lost, 43 Draws, 2 Unknowns (so i need to have look at the unknowns to provide a better score).
Bert
The stats so far (from the perspective of Damage) and base position as used by Gerard.
Damage  KingsRow: 50 games, 2 Win, 3 Lost, 43 Draws, 2 Unknowns (so i need to have look at the unknowns to provide a better score).
Bert
Re: Internet engine matches
Unfortunately i still had ( apparently) some implementation errors, as the match stopped after 158 games (which is the number for the match with the initial position).
Anyway here the 158 games stats from the perspective of Damage.
Damage  KingsRow 12 Win, 10 Lost, 136 Draw.
Bert
Anyway here the 158 games stats from the perspective of Damage.
Damage  KingsRow 12 Win, 10 Lost, 136 Draw.
Bert
Re: Internet engine matches
Hi Bert,
Could you give us your results from white/black point of view?
For my previous match DamyKingsrow (13 wins, 17 losses, 116 draws) 5 wins were made with white and 25 wins were made with black.BertTuyt wrote:Unfortunately i still had ( apparently) some implementation errors, as the match stopped after 158 games (which is the number for the match with the initial position).
Anyway here the 158 games stats from the perspective of Damage.
Damage  KingsRow 12 Win, 10 Lost, 136 Draw.
Bert
Could you give us your results from white/black point of view?
Gérard
Re: Internet engine matches
Gerard in the match Damage played Kingsrow, there were 10 + 12 nondraw games.
8 White Wins and 14 Black Wins.
Bert
8 White Wins and 14 Black Wins.
Bert

 Posts: 155
 Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 23:33
 Real name: JanJaap van Horssen
 Location: Zeist, Netherlands
Re: Internet engine matches
Hi all,TAILLE wrote:
Interesting experiment! My results, from Maximus' point of view:
1. Maximus  Kingsrow(6p): win 19, loss 6, draw 137 (7 white wins, 18 black wins)
2. Maximus  Kingsrow(9p): win 10, loss 4, draw 148 (4 white wins, 10 black wins)
Both matches played with 3 cores each and pondering on my 6core (hyperthreading switched off), tempo 5min/75moves. In match 2, Kingsrow was given an egdb cache of 16000 mb.
Gérard, did you already play 158game ballot matches from the initial position? And what can you tell us about the timetodepth speedup of the search on your 12core? Do you use 12 threads or can you use 24?
JanJaap
www.maximusdraughts.org

 Posts: 145
 Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 17:31
 Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak
Re: Internet engine matches
Bert then programme Damage lost game from KingsRow, or he won with programme KingsRow. Gerard if you can what equipment write on you are working above your program.BertTuyt wrote:Unfortunately i still had ( apparently) some implementation errors, as the match stopped after 158 games (which is the number for the match with the initial position).
Anyway here the 158 games stats from the perspective of Damage.
Damage  KingsRow 12 Win, 10 Lost, 136 Draw.
Bert
Re: Internet engine matches
Hi JanJapp,
Your results against Kingsrow are a little surprising because you suffered 6 losses against Kingsrow(6p) but only 4 against Kingsrow(9p). It looks like Kingsrow uses its 9p egdb to avoid loss but with the drawback of decreasing the number of win. Strange isn't it? Maybe Ed. has an explanation for that.
I am not surprised to see Damy obtained more wins (but also more losses !) because I concentrated my program on winning strategies, avoiding "quite" draw strategies. I am quite sure to be able to increase greatly my score but I have to be patient.
No JanJaap Damy is not yet able to play a match from the initial position due to still large holes in my new eval function.
Concerning the number of cores I use, the current Damy version is not able to use more than 8 cores. I have to work a little on my exclusion function to use 12 cores or more.
BTW all matches I played against Kingsrow were against Kingsrow 1.52a 9p.jj wrote:Hi all,TAILLE wrote:
Interesting experiment! My results, from Maximus' point of view:
1. Maximus  Kingsrow(6p): win 19, loss 6, draw 137 (7 white wins, 18 black wins)
2. Maximus  Kingsrow(9p): win 10, loss 4, draw 148 (4 white wins, 10 black wins)
Both matches played with 3 cores each and pondering on my 6core (hyperthreading switched off), tempo 5min/75moves. In match 2, Kingsrow was given an egdb cache of 16000 mb.
Gérard, did you already play 158game ballot matches from the initial position? And what can you tell us about the timetodepth speedup of the search on your 12core? Do you use 12 threads or can you use 24?
JanJaap
Your results against Kingsrow are a little surprising because you suffered 6 losses against Kingsrow(6p) but only 4 against Kingsrow(9p). It looks like Kingsrow uses its 9p egdb to avoid loss but with the drawback of decreasing the number of win. Strange isn't it? Maybe Ed. has an explanation for that.
I am not surprised to see Damy obtained more wins (but also more losses !) because I concentrated my program on winning strategies, avoiding "quite" draw strategies. I am quite sure to be able to increase greatly my score but I have to be patient.
No JanJaap Damy is not yet able to play a match from the initial position due to still large holes in my new eval function.
Concerning the number of cores I use, the current Damy version is not able to use more than 8 cores. I have to work a little on my exclusion function to use 12 cores or more.
Gérard
Re: Internet engine matches
Damage won the Match, although the margin was not significant.Bert then programme Damage lost game from KingsRow, or he won with programme KingsRow. Gerard if you can what equipment write on you are working above your program.
Also i had switched off pondering (both programs), and also both programs only used 1 core.
Bert
Re: Internet engine matches
Another interesting observation, but i dont have a clue how to explain it.
The 10 wins by Kingsrow was 2 times with white and 8 times with black.
The Damage wins was 12 times with black.
Bert
The 10 wins by Kingsrow was 2 times with white and 8 times with black.
The Damage wins was 12 times with black.
Bert